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Thread: South Slavic Genetic Heritage

  1. #1
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    South Slavic Genetic Heritage

    Hello,

    I was curious if we knew which ancient peoples made up the modern South Slavs, and to what percentage?

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    Native population of Balkans, Early Slavs and Anatolians.

    Early Slavic - HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    Native Balkan - BGR_IA
    Anatolian - modern Anatolian Greeks, I did not find better ancient proxy
    Traces of Turkic - RUS_Nomad_MA

    Target: Serbian
    Distance: 1.5170% / 0.01517049
    54.6 Slavic
    32.0 Native_Balkan
    12.6 Anatolian
    0.8 Nomad_Turkic

    Target: Montenegrin
    Distance: 1.4322% / 0.01432159
    53.4 Slavic
    34.0 Native_Balkan
    11.6 Anatolian
    1.0 Nomad_Turkic

    Target: Croatian
    Distance: 1.7395% / 0.01739476
    67.2 Slavic
    25.8 Native_Balkan
    5.8 Anatolian
    1.2 Nomad_Turkic

    Target: Bosnian
    Distance: 1.6482% / 0.01648150
    63.2 Slavic
    21.0 Native_Balkan
    15.6 Anatolian
    0.2 Nomad_Turkic

    Target: Macedonian:Central
    Distance: 2.4849% / 0.02484895
    41.6 Native_Balkan
    35.0 Slavic
    23.4 Anatolian

    Target: Bulgarian
    Distance: 1.2909% / 0.01290906
    43.0 Slavic
    33.4 Native_Balkan
    21.0 Anatolian
    2.6 Nomad_Turkic


    Probably Croatians also need Western European proxy, but I do not know what it the best for it.

    I wonder if it was true, that Anatolians settled in Balkans, that leave big genetic step on Balkan population, distance is much lower with additional Anatolian, than with just BGR_IA

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrylBojarski View Post
    Native population of Balkans, Early Slavs and Anatolians.

    Early Slavic - HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    Native Balkan - BGR_IA
    Anatolian - modern Anatolian Greeks, I did not find better ancient proxy
    Traces of Turkic - RUS_Nomad_MA
    I think these references are not optimal. It leaves a large gap between BGR_IA and Greeks from Anatolia for example. This inflates the "Anatolian" ancestry by a lot, when it should be more mainland Greek and Roman like for the most part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talos_of_first_claw View Post
    Hello,

    I was curious if we knew which ancient peoples made up the modern South Slavs, and to what percentage?
    The knowledge will improve with more samples from the ancient Balkans, especially Thracians and more Roman Age ones.
    Last edited by Riverman; 01-28-2021 at 10:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think these references are not optimal. It leaves a large gap between BGR_IA and Greeks from Anatolia for example. This inflates the "Anatolian" ancestry by a lot, when it should be more mainland Greek and Roman like for the most part.



    The knowledge will improve with more samples from the ancient Balkans, especially Thracians and more Roman Age ones.
    What samples would you recommend instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrylBojarski View Post
    What samples would you recommend instead?
    Try Mycenaean and Empuries samples for ancient Greek and Italic_IA samples for Roman influence, perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chnodomar View Post
    Try Mycenaean and Empuries samples for ancient Greek and Italic_IA samples for Roman influence, perhaps.
    Distance is much worse without Anatolian Greek

    Target: Serbian
    Distance: 1.6188% / 0.01618848
    55.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    23.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    18.8 BGR_IA
    2.0 RUS_Nomad_MA

    Target: Bulgarian
    Distance: 1.7417% / 0.01741701
    44.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    19.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    18.2 BGR_IA
    13.4 GRC_Mycenaean
    4.6 RUS_Nomad_MA


    With modern Anatolian Greek and samples you recommended



    Target: Serbian
    Distance: 1.4688% / 0.01468807
    55.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    17.2 BGR_IA
    14.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    10.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    1.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
    0.8 RUS_Nomad_MA

    Target: Bulgarian
    Distance: 1.2182% / 0.01218197
    42.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    21.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    14.2 BGR_IA
    11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    6.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
    2.4 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
    2.4 RUS_Nomad_MA


    I can not find Italic_IA sample in datasheet
    Last edited by CyrylBojarski; 01-28-2021 at 12:53 PM.

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    Avar is the Slavic sample?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talos_of_first_claw View Post
    Avar is the Slavic sample?
    Yes, it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, it is.
    Were they Slavicized?

    Also is the Anatolian from the Ottomans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talos_of_first_claw View Post
    Were they Slavicized?

    Also is the Anatolian from the Ottomans?
    Slavs were pushed, governed, suppressed, sometimes allied with Avars. So the Avar rule meant a rather East Asian derived (most likely Turkic in origin) elite on top and a lot of other people, but especially Slavs in their commoners ranks. It is known that the Avars used Slavs as cannon fodder and the Slavic people made numerous uprisings against the Avars. So the Slavs and Avars were enemies for the most part, but the Avar intrusion into Europe and their terror resulted in the widespread dispersion of Slavs for two reasons:
    - First, Slavs fled from the Avars in all directions. Whole people and tribes moved to different geographical regions to escape the Avars, just like the Visigoths and other Germanics fled the Huns generations before.
    - Secondly the Avars controlled and used various Slavic people, so they were put where they wanted them, which faciliated the Slavic spread and Slavs could settle in their zone of control. Like the regions the Avars conquered from the Germans were newly settled by Slavs allied with Avars or controlled by the Slavs more directly.

    The story of Avars and Slavs is therefore pretty similar to the one of Huns and Germanics earlier. They were, originally, sworn enemies, but when the Avars broke the Slavic resistance, the Slavs split into those who
    - remained free by escaping, conquering new places for themselves
    - those allying up with Avars
    - Slavic groups which were suppressed by the Avars and constantly raised up against their rule.

    And, obviously, the position of a Slavic tribe could change from hostile to friendly towards the Avars numerous times. The sample provided is just a Slav under Avar rule in the Avar time.
    Last edited by Riverman; 01-29-2021 at 01:39 PM.

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