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Thread: Maternal and Paternal Lineages in King Tutankhamun's Family (Gad et al. 2020)

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adules View Post
    Unless you're telling me goatherders (Arab migrants) and a segregated community (Greeks) can replace an agricultural powerhouse when they don't have far superior weaponry or disease to blight the land then really modern Egyptian DNA is enough to determine they have always been mostly West Eurasian.
    Is it really worth wasting time on people who deny the West Eurasian character of ancient Egyptians? They are as smart as the Out of India crowd.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adules View Post
    What does that have to do with it?
    It has everything to do with it. Proto Afro-Asiatic language ultimately originates around Nile Valley not Zagrosi Mountains or Anatolia. Most likely in Levant it was introduced by Mushabian migrants from Nile Valley during Late Mesolithic.

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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adules View Post
    Obviously there's mixture from European populations from within prehistory. It's not that hard to comprehend when we know that Europe in the Neolithic at the latest was capable of travel between continents.
    We have evidence of migration into northwest Africa from Europe/Iberia between c.5000 and 3700 BC. A male sample from Kelif el Boroud (3700 BC) had Y-DNA T-M184 (T-L208), which is also found in the samples from Christian Nubia (along with mtDNA U5b2b5).

    "KEB.6 is derived for the branches defining haplogroup LT (branch 339) and T (branch285). Within the T clade, KEB.6 is only derived for branch 284, but not for its
    sister branch 282. The only 1kG sample97 on the tree matching that description is a Tuscan individual (NA20520), and it is classified as T-L208* (T1a1a)."

    Fregel et al. 2018, supplementary information p.42
    The evidence regarding R1b-V88 indicates a migration into Africa from Europe in the Neolithic:

    "markers of the R1b-V88 subclade R1b-V2197, which is at present day found in Sardinians and most African R1b-V88 carriers, are derived only in the Els Trocs individual (Spain, 5,178-5,066 BCE) and two ancient Sardinian individuals (3370-3110 BCE, and 1220-1050 BCE) … recent phylogenetic analysis puts modern Sardinian carrier haplotypes basal to the African R1b-V88 haplotypes. The putative coalescence times between the Sardinian and African branches inferred there fall into the Neolithic Subpluvial (“green Sahara”, about 7,000 to 3,000 years BCE)."

    Marcus et al. 2020
    mtDNAs U5b2b5, H4a1 and J2a1a1 point to migration from Iberia/ western Mediterranean to Egypt.

    Archaeology also indicates connections between Iberia and Egypt in the predynastic period:

    "Close similarities (are) observed between the pre-dynastic Badarian Egyptian culture and that of the Iberian Peninsula which can be called "Late Atlantic Neolithic" (...)

    When a series of possibilities is considered about the relationships between the Iberian Peninsula Neolithics and other contemporary cultures, the greatest similarities are perceived to be between the Iberian "Late Atlantic Neolithic" and the Egyptian Badarian culture. In fact, resemblances to some aspects of Spanish prehistory with the predynastic phase of El Badari were already mentioned years ago in regards to a series of artefactstreated separately. Martinez Santa Olalla (1946), among others, related many aspects of the Almerian culture with this Neolithic period, and P. Bosch (1969), O. Menghin (1941) and P. Laviosa (1955), among other authors, also tried to link this culture to the Egyptian Badarian culture. Ruiz Mata and Martin de la Cruz (1977) also tried to link this culture to the Egyptian Badarian culture. Ruiz Mata and Martin de la Cruz have also proposed Badarian parallels with to the careened pots found in Papa Uvas. Later on, the similarities that the Neolithic spoons from Los Castillejos bore to many other Mediterranean specimens, specifically with the Badarienese ones (Arribas and Molina 1979) were not forgotten by Arribas and Molina. Finally, to mention a few examples that affect many aspects, I. Barandiaran has recently emphasized the similarity of some zoomorphic figurines carved in flintstones from the Ambrose Cave, (Almeria, southern Spain) to identical specimens which are characteristic of predynastic Egyptian cultures, among them, the Badarian. (...)

    Based on the excavations of Brunton and Caton-Thompsom (1928), and on the Petrie (1920) and Vandier (1952) studies, about ten types (Petrie's dates 21 to 29) that coincide almost perfectly with those which appeared in the "Late Atlantic Neolithic" period in the Iberian Peninsula could also be established for the repertory of Badarian pottery forms. (...)

    In addition to the pottery and the traditions of lithic carvings, a third meeting point between the Hispanic and Egyptian groups - the anthropomorphic figurines, could be mentioned. (…)

    the quarry of Papa Uvas in Aljaraque (Huelva), for which several radiocarbonic dates corresponding to this cultural stage have been obtained, would have already had its first occupation by the second half of the fifth millennium BC (Mederos 1996). Consequently, it seems that these cultural manifestations [Badarian and Late Atlantic Neolithic] are apparently synchronic. (…)

    enormous stylistic similarities are observed between the frescos of Tassili or from other Saharan cave stations and certain examples of Levantine Art of the Iberian Peninsula (…)

    The African comparison, specifically from the predynastic Egyptian work, has already been dealt with for the zoomorphic figurines carved in flint stone from the Ambrose Cave (Almeria), and very similar samples can also be provided from the Sahara (Souville 1983a). Furthermore, specialists on the subject (Lhote 1975). Childe 1976; Beltran 1982) have emphasized the typological, technical and thematic similarities between the African paintings, specifically those of the "Bovine" period, and the Spanish ones, both from the region comprising Valencia and Murcia as well as areas more to the South. (…)

    it has sometimes been proposed that (the Iberian language), based on its parallel identification with the Basque, is related to a Hamite branch”

    Escacena Carrasco 2000
    Last edited by Philjames; 02-23-2021 at 09:35 PM.

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  7. #144
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    I bet that these Pharaos are M269, but they branched off long before the ancestors of European M269 stepped a foot west of the Elbe. If we want to assume that King Tut stems from the M269 expansion into western Europe, its haplotype should look alike, but it doesn't.

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  9. #145
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    Is Basque related to Afro-Asiatic?

    "The underlying assumption is that Basque is genetically related with the Hamito-Semitic linguistic family (...) Assuming genetic relationship between Basque and the Hamit-Semitic family does not, however, mean that Basque must be affiliated to it. Neither it is a part of one of its branches, nor does it form a new branch of its own. Rather it is related to Hamito-Semitic as a whole, and this does not exclude that it may be related to other linguistic units as well, provided the latter are also related to Hamito-Semitic - this conclusion is logically imposed as we accept the premise. This leads us to assume the existence of an older common linguistic family of so far unknown extent"

    Mukarovsky 1981
    How about Irish?

    The syntactic parallels between Insular Celtic and Afro-Asiatic languages (which used to be called Hamito-Semitic) were noted more than a century ago by Morris-Jones (1899), and subsequently discussed by a number of scholars. These parallels include the following.

    a) The VSO order, attested both in OIr. and in Brythonic from the earliest documents (…)
    b) The existence of special relative forms of the verb (…)
    c) The existence of prepositions inflected for person (or prepositional pronouns) (…)
    d) Prepositional progressive verbal forms (…)
    e) The existence of the opposition between the “absolute” and “conjunct” verbal forms. (…)

    The aforementioned features of Old Irish and Insular Celtic syntax (and a few others) are all found in Afro-Asiatic languages, often in several branches of that family, but usually in Berber and Ancient Egyptian.

    Orin Gensler, in his unpublished dissertation (1993) applied refined statistical methods showing that the syntactic parallels between Insular Celtic and Afro-Asiatic cannot be attributed to chance. The crucial point is that these parallels include features that are otherwise rare cross-linguistically, but co-occur precisely in those two groups of languages. This more or less amounts to a proof that there was some connection between Insular Celtic and Afro-Asiatic at some stage in prehistory, but the exact nature of that connection is still open to speculation. (…)

    Insular Celtic also shares a number of areal isoglosses with languages of Western Africa, sometimes also with Basque, which shows that the Insular Celtic — Afroasiatic parallels should be viewed in light of the larger framework of prehistoric areal convergences in Western Europe and NW Africa. (…)

    The syntactic parallels between the Insular Celtic and Afro-Asiatic languages are probably not accidental, but they should not be taken to mean that the pre-Celtic substratum of Britain and Ireland belonged to the Afro-Asiatic stock. It is also possible that it was a language, or a group of languages (not necessarily related), that belonged to the same macro-area as the Afro-Asiatic languages of North Africa. The parallels between Insular Celtic, Basque, and the Atlantic languages of the Niger-Congo family, presented in the second part of this paper, are consistent with the hypothesis that there was a large linguistic macro-area, encompassing parts of NW Africa, as well as large parts of Western Europe, before the arrival of the speakers of Indo-European, including Celtic."

    Matasović 2012
    Last edited by Philjames; 02-23-2021 at 07:56 PM.

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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    mtDNA J2a1a1, found in the oldest sample from Abusir el-Meleq (1388-1311 BC), also seems to have come from Europe.

    J2a1a1 samples:



    The distribution is remarkably similar to mtDNA H4a1, found in Takabuti (660 BC). The oldest samples are in Iberia, they're also found in Sardinia and Bell Beaker samples, and later appear in Scandinavian Vikings. And J2a1a1 suddenly appears all the way over in Mongolia, like H4a1.
    Heh, FTDNA and Yfull can't agree what we are, but we're some form of J2a1a1. FTDNA says J2a1a1e, Yfull has come to 3 separate conclusions over the years but currently we are in out own little corner of J2a1a1h.
    Unfortunately, while she's on the "Lebanese side" of my family, I don't know much about my mtDNA line before she got to the US in the 1800s. She might even be Armenian and not Lebanese, although the fact that yfull has another Lebanese kit (TMRCA 1500ybp) points there.

    But it's fun to speculate when and wherefrom our J2a1a1 came to the Levant (and Egypt)

    Edit:

    Our Lebanese J2a1a1h match at yfull is actually from an academic paper sample:
    "Ancient mitogenomes of Phoenicians from Sardinia and Lebanon: A story of settlement, integration, and female mobility"
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0190169
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 02-23-2021 at 07:49 PM.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  13. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    We have evidence of migration into northwest Africa from Europe/Iberia between c.5000 and 3700 BC. A male sample from Kelif el Boroud (3700 BC) had Y-DNA T-M184 (T-L208), which is also found in the samples from Christian Nubia (along with mtDNA U5b2b5).



    The evidence regarding R1b-V88 indicates a migration into Africa from Europe in the Neolithic:



    mtDNAs U5b2b5, H4a1 and J2a1a1 point to migration from Iberia/ western Mediterranean to Egypt.

    Archaeology also indicates connections between Iberia and Egypt in the predynastic period:
    KEB6 is found in morocco on the atlantic coast ...............I have seen it came via northern Spain ( Galicia )....below is more details

    BTW......T and L split off from LT 42000 years ago ............its a long time from KEB6 times

    Kehf-el-Baroud ( 4950 yBP - Late Neolithic )


    KEB.6 ( 4940 ± 30 yBP ) other: 5565 ± 65 yBP
    Y-DNA: T1a1a-L162 (x T1a1a2b-BY154181, T1a1a1a1-Y4119, T1a1a1a2a1a-BY28257, T1a1a1a2b1a-Y12642, T1a1a1b1a-Y18956)
    mtDNA: K1a4a1

    Genome-Wide Coverage: 0.14X
    Wisc reads: 169,242,780
    Other IDs: Library AEH161 / Museum KEB93.94 d2
    Sample: Teeth
    Autosomal Notes: Iberian origin.
    Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM (FASTQ=>mapped-BAM)


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  15. #148
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    I keep missing this thread because to me YDNA and mtDNA are Uniparentals, so I keep looking for it in that part of the forum.
    Silly me!

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    The STR profile of Tutankhamun is R-M269 not V88, the others are erroneous. The Ramses haplotype is not E1b1a, in fact the values dont make any sense thus we won't be able to know his haplogroup.

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  19. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad View Post
    The STR profile of Tutankhamun is R-M269 not V88, the others are erroneous. The Ramses haplotype is not E1b1a, in fact the values dont make any sense thus we won't be able to know his haplogroup.
    Interesting. Ramses being E1b1a is taken as gospel but Tut being M269 is heavily questioned. I wonder why.

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