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Thread: Big Y results for I2a-Dinaric

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT1976 View Post
    Interesting. What data your basing this subclade frequency / distribution on ?
    Yep, very hard to unravel . I1 was in SEE since neolithic, probably palaeolithic. Then there were Gepid, Herul etc mercenaries, then even "Saxon" miners in Middle Ages, etc...
    Hopefully this won't be too off topic (it can always be moved (:=) One other source of I1 (possibly also R1a and I2a) might be the "Bastarnian" relocations into the Roman Empire areas. Difficult to trace exactly though, but should be kept in mind. I know of three major ones, historically documented: (1) The movement of most "Peucini" ca. 29 BCE to an area close to today's Kosovo (noted by Dio Cassius) (2) The transplantation of ca. 100,000 "Zarubinians" in the mid-1rst c. AD (noted as Bastarnians in the funeral stone of Nero's Danubian area commander) and (3) the transplantation of the remaining Bastarnian Peucini by Emperor Probus in 280 AD).

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  3. #52
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    In case you have not read the I2a blog yet, a fourth I-CTS10228 "Dinaric" branch is identified:

    Almost everyone in I-CTS10228 belongs to one of three branches: I-S17250, I-Y4460 or I-Z17855. But there are a few people who are CTS10228+ and S17250- Y4460- Z17855-.

    We now know that there is a fourth branch called I-Y2512. Two people have done Big Ys which show that they belong to this group: kit 4605 from the "Jewish Dinaric" cluster, and kit N80837 who has Greek ancestry and is part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster. Kit 54093 has also received Y2512+ results from YSeq, he is also part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster and more specifically the New Mexico Dinaric cluster. Finally there is an anonymous sample (GS000018440-DID) from Chuvashia that was sequenced by the Estonian Biocentre and found to belong to I-Y2512,


    http://i2aproject.blogspot.de/2015_08_01_archive.html

    The spread of this branch is very wide - from Spain to Chivashia! Must be some older offshoot and maybe not proper "Dinaric" like Disles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    The spread of this branch is very wide - from Spain to Chivashia! Must be some older offshoot and maybe not proper "Dinaric" like Disles.
    The newly discovered subclade, marked by A2512 (Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

    The blog post makes clear that this new subclade is actually marked by two SNPs: A2512 and the unnamed 9853064. Moreover, the Greek and Chuvash examples share yet another SNP, A7134.

    In any case, we must recall that besides the four subclades of I-CTS10228, we still have one stubborn singleton, with patrilineage from southeastern Poland.

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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The newly discovered subclade, marked by A2512 (Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

    The blog post makes clear that this new subclade is actually marked by two SNPs: A2512 and the unnamed 9853064. Moreover, the Greek and Chuvash examples share yet another SNP, A7134.

    In any case, we must recall that besides the four subclades of I-CTS10228, we still have one stubborn singleton, with patrilineage from southeastern Poland.
    Question from someone still at genetics 101: Do we assume that all those classified as CTS10228 (including the members of the A2512 clade and the honourable singleton all have the 21 additional SNP's hidden
    in the Yfull chart? And that the other group defining SNP's (like S17520 et sim.) are all downstream from these 21?

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Do we assume that all those classified as CTS10228 (including the members of the A2512 clade and the honourable singleton all have the 21 additional SNP's hidden
    in the Yfull chart? And that the other group defining SNP's (like S17520 et sim.) are all downstream from these 21?
    It's not an assumption but an observation. YFull lists a total of 24 SNPs at the I-CTS10228 level. This means that any listed subclade has all of those SNPs and more. The one singleton has all of those 24 SNPs also, otherwise the singleton would force a split into two levels.

    Apparently, no member of the new A2512 subclade has submitted his BAM file to YFull yet (although at least one has promised to do so). However, an administrator of the I2a Project has--if I understand correctly--gone over their VCF files thoroughly, and is quite convinced that A2512 is entirely downstream of the CTS10228 level. But I suppose we won't be absolutely certain of this until at least one A2512+ example is analyzed by YFull.

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  10. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The newly discovered subclade, marked by A2512 (Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?
    .

    There's one thing I can't seem to understand about these Yfull numbers. Leaving aside how they figure out "when" a particular group was "formed" (3,500BCE for CTS10228) I am quite confused by their TMRCA estimates. We are told that for the entire group the TMRCA is ca.300 BCE. But when we examine individuals we see something quite different. For instance, YF02420's initiator seems to date from 1238 BCE, YF02675's from 1227 BCE, YF01914's from 1185 BCE, and the 10228's singleton's from 178 BCE... The entire list is full of such differences. So what would be the point of this "300BCE" date for the entire clade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    For instance, YF02420's initiator seems to date from 1238 BCE, YF02675's from 1227 BCE, YF01914's from 1185 BCE, and the 10228's singleton's from 178 BCE.
    That's what a random distribution looks like. YFull is essentially averaging across the samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    That's what a random distribution looks like. YFull is essentially averaging across the samples.
    Yes. I realized that. Well since I am no mathematician I am not about to question their procedures. It just seems strange to me that "zero results" kits like YF O3992, 04010, 04043, 04018, and 04022 should be included in the computations. What possible information does one get out of such?

    Also: When you press "more" for 10228 and 4002 the age of these clades (top line) seem closer to those specified re their TMRCA than re their "formation". Is that the intention?

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    It just seems strange to me that "zero results" kits like YF O3992, 04010, 04043, 04018, and 04022 should be included in the computations.
    The zeroes are incompletely analyzed samples. They are not actually included in the calculations. The More screen is incorrect in that respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    When you press "more" for 10228 and 4002 the age of these clades (top line) seem closer to those specified re their TMRCA than re their "formation". Is that the intention?
    Yes, the TMRCA for a clade is calculated/estimated from the samples within that clade. The "formation" date of a clade is simply the TMRCA of its parent.

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  15. #60
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    "The zeroes are incompletely analyzed samples. They are not actually included in the calculations. The More screen is incorrect in that respect." (L.Mayka)

    Correct. They should revise all the data for which they have used these "zeroes". For instance the total for the 10 analyzed Y-4460 is 22,376, which yields their figure of 1723 only if the three "zeroes" are added as dividers to these 10. Without this addition the resulting figure would be 2238, which would change the age indicated at the top left from 2010 to 2139 (and it should be even higher because of the "zeroes" falsifying the results of S17250 in the same way... And that's only one of the problems. But I'll leave it here.

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