Turkic component in Ashkenazi Jews

[HelioSun]

Hello all!

I was fiddling around with some of the calculators on G25 and I came across something interesting regarding my own Ashkenazi DNA. Please keep in mind that I do not support the Khazar theory whatsoever. However, I found that I have a significant amount of ancient Turkic ancestry:

Target: HelioSun
Distance: 0.7127% / 0.00712696
17.4 UKR_Cimmerian_o
15.8 TUR_Isparta_EBA
15.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
9.6 Levant_JOR_EBA
7.0 FRA_Grand_Est_EN_o
6.2 TKM_Parkhai_EBA
4.6 CHE_FN_steppe_contam
4.4 Levant_PPNC
4.4 SWE_LN_low_res
3.2 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
2.8 MAR_LN
2.2 VK2020_RUS_Pskov_VA
1.8 MAR_EN
1.4 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian
1.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.8 CAN_400BP
0.8 VK2020_NOR_North_VA_o2
0.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
0.6 UKR_Trypillia
0.4 TKM_Gonur3_BA

Is this typical for Ashkenazi Jews?

[K33]

Hello all!

I was fiddling around with some of the calculators on G25 and I came across something interesting regarding my own Ashkenazi DNA. Please keep in mind that I do not support the Khazar theory whatsoever. However, I found that I have a significant amount of ancient Turkic ancestry:



Is this typical for Ashkenazi Jews?

That's likely overfitting.

You should try to limit yourself to no more than 3-5 or so populations. Using Levant_Canaanite_MBA, GRC_Mycenaean, and a North Italian or South German reference you can get good fits (<2.5%) for Ashkenazim that are much more realistic.

Not so say that there couldn't have been ANY Khazar influx into the Eastern Ashkenazim... but it's almost certainly <5%, and probably much less.

[passenger]

Yes, if you're running your coordinates with the full spreadsheet of averages or individuals the results won't be very meaningful. For ancients, you have to select which time period you want to look at and choose your samples accordingly. Scoring "Golden Horde" is a somewhat more likely indicator of Central Asian ancestry within the past 2000 years, but it would be better to combine it with a set of Classical to Early Medieval samples. Early Bronze Age Turkmenistan doesn't tell you much. It seems to me that in this scenario it would be more reflective of ancient Persian ancestry shared by Western Jews (Ashkenazim and Sephardim).

[passenger]

Out of curiosity, see what happens if you run your coordinates with Seabass' "Ancient Scaled Calc for Italians and Western Jews" together with Khazak Golden Horde Asian:

 

Berber,-0.066796211,0.134530842,-0.002222947,-0.078863,0.030337526,-0.036740211,-0.033680684,0.011052211,0.080969789,0.034481,0.009 512579,-0.007769368,0.023410211,-0.019448316,0.021572421,-0.016559684,0.000569632,-0.028804842,-0.056365632,0.012032158,-0.020812,-0.052871368,0.031778368,-0.004325211,0.007556684
Levantine,0.085673808,0.147642462,-0.053841269,-0.09126,-0.012771538,-0.031503885,-0.004980192,-0.009168308,0.010792577,0.0112425,0.005390231,-0.006801731,0.014860385,-0.000142923,-0.009792808,0.007557577,0.003008962,-0.000521346,0.001198846,0.001183269,0.001209385,0. 005450231,-0.002915269,-0.001455231,-0.002196923
Medieval_Slav,0.13175025,0.118817,0.0906035,0.0935 085,0.050394,0.03939325,0.014277,0.017711,0.001840 75,-0.036994,-0.00807875,-0.016485,0.02359975,0.02835025,0.00010175,0.01127, 0.0089965,-0.002217,0.00132,-0.00247,0.003806,-0.003524,0.00717925,-0.00247025,9.00E-05
Medieval_Germanic,0.129947833,0.1311725,0.065619,0 .061962167,0.039289333,0.020777333,0.008186,0.0085 765,0.000750167,-0.006256833,-0.003680833,0.004046333,-0.0106045,-0.006078333,0.027325,-0.001082667,-0.012495,0.002428333,0.002178667,0.006878167,0.003 265,0.008428833,-0.001972,0.0151225,0.00004
Early_Iberian,0.125106478,0.149900826,0.058338957, 0.00391813,0.063476652,-0.003055652,-0.002370522,0.002558478,0.033319565,0.05032087,-0.00398187,0.009930348,-0.023494957,-0.01565913,0.006154652,0.006790957,0.007772043,0.0 01239304,0.001284304,0.000478522,0.007806783,0.002 338739,-0.009645478,-0.01416113,-0.000197957
Italic,0.127608556,0.150298556,0.035658889,-0.012776444,0.043119111,-0.006383444,0.001357778,0.000769222,0.020793333,0. 038006222,0.00083,0.012622111,-0.019375556,-0.007401111,-0.001085667,-0.001193222,0.003071222,0.003209444,0.007542,-0.003432222,-0.000138667,0.005028444,-0.002903222,-0.002155556,-0.000146444
Silk_Road_Chinese,0.0156507,-0.438709,-0.046763,-0.0609662,0.1201762,0.0622622,0.00047,-0.0073845,-0.0189698,-0.013121,0.0109208,0.0020232,-0.000446,-0.006193,0.0012895,0.0045742,0.0061282,-0.0009502,-0.0043368,-0.011662,0.0121972,0.0090268,0.0149438,0.002892,0. 007095
SSA,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
East-African,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
Hellenized_East-Mediterranean,0.108064971,0.150059382,-0.023614353,-0.057,0.004018735,-0.020416441,-0.000407794,-0.005246353,-0.003789676,0.020453353,0.003534382,0.002975324,-0.006562853,0.000283294,-0.010047382,-0.004238912,0.002830029,0.001322794,0.003197882,-0.004833206,-0.002470029,0.003124118,-0.001221588,0.000155971,0.000274735
Egyptian,0.046477667,0.150298333,-0.047642833,-0.1088515,-0.001077167,-0.047086,-0.015040667,-0.004153833,0.043188667,0.005193667,0.010555167,-0.014661833,0.029434833,-0.001881,0.000588,-0.003889333,-0.009126667,-0.000570167,-0.004189833,0.00865,0.005823167,0.002226,-0.001746,0.004659,-0.0030335
KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian,0.042115,-0.410274,0.09692,-0.033915,-0.084016,-0.048806,0.018801,0.029306,0.015339,0.021686,-0.023222,0.007643,-0.005054,0.017065,0.002443,-0.002387,0.007302,-0.001267,0.006411,0.02126,-0.024831,-0.015951,-0.02884,-0.001325,-0.003353

[Liquid]

Turkified Hellenized East-Mediterranean

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 4.1554% / 0.04155438 | R5P
78.6 Hellenized_East-Mediterranean
7.2 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian
6.6 Medieval_Germanic
5.6 Silk_Road_Chinese
2.0 Medieval_Slav

[altvred]

That's likely overfitting.

You should try to limit yourself to no more than 3-5 or so populations. Using Levant_Canaanite_MBA, GRC_Mycenaean, and a North Italian or South German reference you can get good fits (<2.5%) for Ashkenazim that are much more realistic.

Not so say that there couldn't have been ANY Khazar influx into the Eastern Ashkenazim... but it's almost certainly <5%, and probably much less.

Furthermore, any hypothetical central Asian admixture in Ashkenazi Jews, if it exists, IMHO is probably wholly unrelated to the Khazars.

At the time of the Khazar Khaganate's existence, the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews lived predominantly way out west, mostly around the Rhine. When we finally get Jews in Eastern Europe, it's 500 years after Sviatoslav sacked the Khazar capital, the Khazars most likely assimilated by the various subsequent Turkic tribes at this point.

We also need to keep in mind that only a tiny elite converted to Judaism, not the entire tribal confederation.

Another thing, KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian is not a good proxy for Turkic ancestry. Way too eastern, even for a Mongol (which I think he most likely was, at least ethnically).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Among the various components the Ashkenazi average has 1.2% East Asian/Siberian with a low of 0% and a high of 3.6%. I honestly don't know how it got into the Ashkenazites though.

[Pylsteen]

Among the various components the Ashkenazi average has 1.2% East Asian/Siberian with a low of 0% and a high of 3.6%. I honestly don't know how it got into the Ashkenazites though.

IMO probably through medieval trade, and in combination with the mtdna M33c.

[hi123]

TKM-Parkhai-EBA is not "Turkic", it's an ancient Iranian ancestry.

You will also find it in other Levantine communities.

Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 1.2355% / 0.01235544
40.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
18.0 Levant_Abel_IA
10.4 Levant_PPNC
7.2 TKM_Parkhai_EBA
5.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA
3.2 TKM_Gonur3_BA
2.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
2.6 VK2020_Faroes_VA
2.0 MKD_N
1.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
1.2 DEU_MA_o
1.2 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
1.0 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
0.6 MAR_EN
0.4 GRC_N

[davit]

TKM-Parkhai-EBA is not "Turkic", it's an ancient Iranian ancestry.

You will also find it in other Levantine communities.

Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 1.2355% / 0.01235544
40.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
18.0 Levant_Abel_IA
10.4 Levant_PPNC
7.2 TKM_Parkhai_EBA
5.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA
3.2 TKM_Gonur3_BA
2.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
2.6 VK2020_Faroes_VA
2.0 MKD_N
1.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
1.2 DEU_MA_o
1.2 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
1.0 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
0.6 MAR_EN
0.4 GRC_N

Same applies to TKM_Gonur3_BA I think.