Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 28

Thread: Turkic component in Ashkenazi Jews

  1. #1

    Turkic component in Ashkenazi Jews

    Hello all!

    I was fiddling around with some of the calculators on G25 and I came across something interesting regarding my own Ashkenazi DNA. Please keep in mind that I do not support the Khazar theory whatsoever. However, I found that I have a significant amount of ancient Turkic ancestry:

    Target: HelioSun
    Distance: 0.7127% / 0.00712696
    17.4 UKR_Cimmerian_o
    15.8 TUR_Isparta_EBA
    15.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
    9.6 Levant_JOR_EBA
    7.0 FRA_Grand_Est_EN_o
    6.2 TKM_Parkhai_EBA
    4.6 CHE_FN_steppe_contam
    4.4 Levant_PPNC
    4.4 SWE_LN_low_res
    3.2 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
    2.8 MAR_LN
    2.2 VK2020_RUS_Pskov_VA
    1.8 MAR_EN
    1.4 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian
    1.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
    0.8 CAN_400BP
    0.8 VK2020_NOR_North_VA_o2
    0.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
    0.6 UKR_Trypillia
    0.4 TKM_Gonur3_BA
    Is this typical for Ashkenazi Jews?
    Last edited by HelioSun; 02-09-2021 at 03:09 AM.

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    621
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic, Near East
    Nationality
    Murcan
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    T2a1a

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by HelioSun View Post
    Hello all!

    I was fiddling around with some of the calculators on G25 and I came across something interesting regarding my own Ashkenazi DNA. Please keep in mind that I do not support the Khazar theory whatsoever. However, I found that I have a significant amount of ancient Turkic ancestry:



    Is this typical for Ashkenazi Jews?
    That's likely overfitting.

    You should try to limit yourself to no more than 3-5 or so populations. Using Levant_Canaanite_MBA, GRC_Mycenaean, and a North Italian or South German reference you can get good fits (<2.5%) for Ashkenazim that are much more realistic.

    Not so say that there couldn't have been ANY Khazar influx into the Eastern Ashkenazim... but it's almost certainly <5%, and probably much less.

  3. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to K33 For This Useful Post:

     altvred (02-09-2021),  BalkanKiwi (02-09-2021),  curiousDNAguy12 (02-13-2021),  Erikl86 (02-09-2021),  grumpydaddybear (02-09-2021),  hartaisarlag (02-15-2021),  leorcooper19 (02-09-2021),  passenger (02-09-2021),  Seabass (02-09-2021)

  4. #3
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    1,482
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    NW Europe+Ash/Seph Jewish

    England Star of David Netherlands Turkey Denmark Germany
    Yes, if you're running your coordinates with the full spreadsheet of averages or individuals the results won't be very meaningful. For ancients, you have to select which time period you want to look at and choose your samples accordingly. Scoring "Golden Horde" is a somewhat more likely indicator of Central Asian ancestry within the past 2000 years, but it would be better to combine it with a set of Classical to Early Medieval samples. Early Bronze Age Turkmenistan doesn't tell you much. It seems to me that in this scenario it would be more reflective of ancient Persian ancestry shared by Western Jews (Ashkenazim and Sephardim).

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to passenger For This Useful Post:

     rober_tce (02-09-2021),  Seabass (02-09-2021)

  6. #4
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    1,482
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    NW Europe+Ash/Seph Jewish

    England Star of David Netherlands Turkey Denmark Germany
    Out of curiosity, see what happens if you run your coordinates with Seabass' "Ancient Scaled Calc for Italians and Western Jews" together with Khazak Golden Horde Asian:

     
    Berber,-0.066796211,0.134530842,-0.002222947,-0.078863,0.030337526,-0.036740211,-0.033680684,0.011052211,0.080969789,0.034481,0.009 512579,-0.007769368,0.023410211,-0.019448316,0.021572421,-0.016559684,0.000569632,-0.028804842,-0.056365632,0.012032158,-0.020812,-0.052871368,0.031778368,-0.004325211,0.007556684
    Levantine,0.085673808,0.147642462,-0.053841269,-0.09126,-0.012771538,-0.031503885,-0.004980192,-0.009168308,0.010792577,0.0112425,0.005390231,-0.006801731,0.014860385,-0.000142923,-0.009792808,0.007557577,0.003008962,-0.000521346,0.001198846,0.001183269,0.001209385,0. 005450231,-0.002915269,-0.001455231,-0.002196923
    Medieval_Slav,0.13175025,0.118817,0.0906035,0.0935 085,0.050394,0.03939325,0.014277,0.017711,0.001840 75,-0.036994,-0.00807875,-0.016485,0.02359975,0.02835025,0.00010175,0.01127, 0.0089965,-0.002217,0.00132,-0.00247,0.003806,-0.003524,0.00717925,-0.00247025,9.00E-05
    Medieval_Germanic,0.129947833,0.1311725,0.065619,0 .061962167,0.039289333,0.020777333,0.008186,0.0085 765,0.000750167,-0.006256833,-0.003680833,0.004046333,-0.0106045,-0.006078333,0.027325,-0.001082667,-0.012495,0.002428333,0.002178667,0.006878167,0.003 265,0.008428833,-0.001972,0.0151225,0.00004
    Early_Iberian,0.125106478,0.149900826,0.058338957, 0.00391813,0.063476652,-0.003055652,-0.002370522,0.002558478,0.033319565,0.05032087,-0.00398187,0.009930348,-0.023494957,-0.01565913,0.006154652,0.006790957,0.007772043,0.0 01239304,0.001284304,0.000478522,0.007806783,0.002 338739,-0.009645478,-0.01416113,-0.000197957
    Italic,0.127608556,0.150298556,0.035658889,-0.012776444,0.043119111,-0.006383444,0.001357778,0.000769222,0.020793333,0. 038006222,0.00083,0.012622111,-0.019375556,-0.007401111,-0.001085667,-0.001193222,0.003071222,0.003209444,0.007542,-0.003432222,-0.000138667,0.005028444,-0.002903222,-0.002155556,-0.000146444
    Silk_Road_Chinese,0.0156507,-0.438709,-0.046763,-0.0609662,0.1201762,0.0622622,0.00047,-0.0073845,-0.0189698,-0.013121,0.0109208,0.0020232,-0.000446,-0.006193,0.0012895,0.0045742,0.0061282,-0.0009502,-0.0043368,-0.011662,0.0121972,0.0090268,0.0149438,0.002892,0. 007095
    SSA,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
    East-African,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
    Hellenized_East-Mediterranean,0.108064971,0.150059382,-0.023614353,-0.057,0.004018735,-0.020416441,-0.000407794,-0.005246353,-0.003789676,0.020453353,0.003534382,0.002975324,-0.006562853,0.000283294,-0.010047382,-0.004238912,0.002830029,0.001322794,0.003197882,-0.004833206,-0.002470029,0.003124118,-0.001221588,0.000155971,0.000274735
    Egyptian,0.046477667,0.150298333,-0.047642833,-0.1088515,-0.001077167,-0.047086,-0.015040667,-0.004153833,0.043188667,0.005193667,0.010555167,-0.014661833,0.029434833,-0.001881,0.000588,-0.003889333,-0.009126667,-0.000570167,-0.004189833,0.00865,0.005823167,0.002226,-0.001746,0.004659,-0.0030335
    KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian,0.042115,-0.410274,0.09692,-0.033915,-0.084016,-0.048806,0.018801,0.029306,0.015339,0.021686,-0.023222,0.007643,-0.005054,0.017065,0.002443,-0.002387,0.007302,-0.001267,0.006411,0.02126,-0.024831,-0.015951,-0.02884,-0.001325,-0.003353

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to passenger For This Useful Post:

     coffeeprince (02-09-2021),  grumpydaddybear (02-09-2021)

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    64
    Ethnicity
    Anatolian Turk
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2a1-M67 / J-Z467
    mtDNA (M)
    J2b1 / J2b1a6

    Turkey Turkey
    Turkified Hellenized East-Mediterranean

    Target: Liquid_scaled
    Distance: 4.1554% / 0.04155438 | R5P
    78.6 Hellenized_East-Mediterranean
    7.2 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian
    6.6 Medieval_Germanic
    5.6 Silk_Road_Chinese
    2.0 Medieval_Slav
    Distance: 2.2682%
    38.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    7.4 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
    6.8 Levant_Natufian
    2.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    99.5% Anatolian, 0.5% Sudanese (23&me)

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Liquid For This Useful Post:

     Seabass (02-09-2021)

  10. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    256
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y33
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-Y6938

    Russian Federation Russia Tatarstan Arms Russia Mordovia Timurid
    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    That's likely overfitting.

    You should try to limit yourself to no more than 3-5 or so populations. Using Levant_Canaanite_MBA, GRC_Mycenaean, and a North Italian or South German reference you can get good fits (<2.5%) for Ashkenazim that are much more realistic.

    Not so say that there couldn't have been ANY Khazar influx into the Eastern Ashkenazim... but it's almost certainly <5%, and probably much less.
    Furthermore, any hypothetical central Asian admixture in Ashkenazi Jews, if it exists, IMHO is probably wholly unrelated to the Khazars.

    At the time of the Khazar Khaganate's existence, the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews lived predominantly way out west, mostly around the Rhine. When we finally get Jews in Eastern Europe, it's 500 years after Sviatoslav sacked the Khazar capital, the Khazars most likely assimilated by the various subsequent Turkic tribes at this point.

    We also need to keep in mind that only a tiny elite converted to Judaism, not the entire tribal confederation.

    Another thing, KAZ_Golden_Horde_Asian is not a good proxy for Turkic ancestry. Way too eastern, even for a Mongol (which I think he most likely was, at least ethnically).

    Last edited by altvred; 02-09-2021 at 08:06 AM.

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to altvred For This Useful Post:

     grumpydaddybear (02-09-2021),  passenger (02-09-2021)

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    942
    Sex

    Among the various components the Ashkenazi average has 1.2% East Asian/Siberian with a low of 0% and a high of 3.6%. I honestly don't know how it got into the Ashkenazites though.
    [1] "distance%=2.9299"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,51.4
    BALTIC_BA,12.6
    GANJ_DAREH,10.8
    CHG,10.4
    MIDDLE_EAST,10
    ANE,2.4
    TAFORALT,1.8
    WHG,0.6

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Ajeje Brazorf For This Useful Post:

     grumpydaddybear (02-09-2021)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,036
    Sex

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Among the various components the Ashkenazi average has 1.2% East Asian/Siberian with a low of 0% and a high of 3.6%. I honestly don't know how it got into the Ashkenazites though.
    IMO probably through medieval trade, and in combination with the mtdna M33c.

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Pylsteen For This Useful Post:

     hartaisarlag (02-15-2021),  leorcooper19 (02-09-2021),  rober_tce (02-09-2021)

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4
    Sex

    TKM-Parkhai-EBA is not "Turkic", it's an ancient Iranian ancestry.

    You will also find it in other Levantine communities.

    Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    Distance: 1.2355% / 0.01235544
    40.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
    18.0 Levant_Abel_IA
    10.4 Levant_PPNC
    7.2 TKM_Parkhai_EBA
    5.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA
    3.2 TKM_Gonur3_BA
    2.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
    2.6 VK2020_Faroes_VA
    2.0 MKD_N
    1.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
    1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
    1.2 DEU_MA_o
    1.2 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
    1.0 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
    0.6 MAR_EN
    0.4 GRC_N
    Last edited by hi123; 02-09-2021 at 12:03 PM.

  17. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to hi123 For This Useful Post:

     grumpydaddybear (02-09-2021),  hartaisarlag (02-15-2021),  jkotl0327 (02-09-2021),  Seabass (02-09-2021),  Targum (02-16-2021)

  18. #10
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    635
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Italian, 1/2 Armenian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a

    Quote Originally Posted by hi123 View Post
    TKM-Parkhai-EBA is not "Turkic", it's an ancient Iranian ancestry.

    You will also find it in other Levantine communities.

    Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    Distance: 1.2355% / 0.01235544
    40.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
    18.0 Levant_Abel_IA
    10.4 Levant_PPNC
    7.2 TKM_Parkhai_EBA
    5.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA
    3.2 TKM_Gonur3_BA
    2.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
    2.6 VK2020_Faroes_VA
    2.0 MKD_N
    1.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
    1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
    1.2 DEU_MA_o
    1.2 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
    1.0 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
    0.6 MAR_EN
    0.4 GRC_N
    Same applies to TKM_Gonur3_BA I think.

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to davit For This Useful Post:

     altvred (02-09-2021),  grumpydaddybear (02-09-2021)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 09-18-2020, 09:29 PM
  2. The DNA of Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews
    By Logistics in forum Jewish
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 06-09-2020, 01:56 AM
  3. E1a1 among Ashkenazi Jews
    By Power77 in forum Jewish
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-02-2018, 03:33 PM
  4. A new paper on Ashkenazi Jews.
    By Kaldo in forum Jewish
    Replies: 147
    Last Post: 08-21-2017, 04:04 AM
  5. Ashkenazi Jews - R1a
    By ÁNLEIFR in forum Jewish
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 03-23-2016, 01:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •