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Thread: [split] proto-Indo-Iranian, Avestan and Sanskrit: Age & Separation Date

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    https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedi...-indus-valley/
    CATTLE AND THE HARAPPAN CHIEFDOMS OF THE INDUS VALLEY

    "The early excavators were trained in the study of the history of the ancient civilizations of the Near East, Greece, and Rome. When they sought to reconstruct the Harappan world they saw a rather poor but still representative example of aspects of more familiar civilizations. Thus they wrote of kings, urban capitals, slaves, citadels, and alien invasions in the Indus Valley. More recent studies have proven that these classical models are inappropriate. The Harappan civilization is something unique unto itself. A part of this uniqueness is a result of the particular role given to animals and specifically to cattle....

    As we worked at Allahdino it became clear that the importance of cattle suggested by the figurines was also reflected in the faunal evidence. Among the animal bones discarded by the ancient inhabitants, those identified as cattle were predominant....

    Archaeological surveys have revealed that the Harappans in their heyday had settlements stretching from Badakhshan in Afghanistan in the north to the delta of the Narmada River far to the south, and from the western Makran to the vicinity of Delhi in the east (Fig. 1). No other Bronze Age civilization had so wide a geographic spread...

    One explanation for the wide distribution of short-term settlements may lie in the Harappan cattle herds. Cattle require good grazing land year round. If green pastures are not available, herds must be supplied with fodder ...

    The possession of cattle is as important to the herder as is the possession of fields for the cultivator. Just as the estate owner can look with pride on his lands, so the cattleman can boast of his great herds. The Harappans apparently held both values....

    But if herds of large size constitute wealth, this very size threatens sedentary life. Some regulatory arrangement has to be made, or the “farmer and the cowhand” are at odds with one another, and the cohesiveness of the community is imperiled. The Harappans’ solution to this dilemma seems to have been quite simple: they adopted a pattern of migration, a movement away from areas where land limitation and the vagaries of the seasons made cohabitation impractical.

    By utilizing the different resource zones in any one area, the Harappan settlement systems adapted beautifully to the world around them.

    It is also true that in some areas there was only a single site, usually a walled village or town. These settlements tended to be in regions far from the Indus, such as the Makran or Badakhshan, and apparently were created to obtain single resources like copper or lapis lazuli...

    Eventually, the centrality of the chiefdoms was weakened and died, and the Harappan cultural style waned and was integrated into new cultural styles developing to the east and south in the Indian subcontinent. We have a distance to go in our investigations of this most ancient Indian culture, but increasingly the evidence emphasizes that cattle were at the heart of the prosperity of the Indus chiefdoms and paradoxically played a powerful role in bringing about the demise of this society."
    Last edited by parasar; 03-28-2021 at 07:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Why were cattle forbidden to eat in later times because the newcomers (early Indo-Aryans) consumed a large number of cattle or because of a religious-mythological background? In other cultures, too, cattle were of great importance, for example for cults or the yield of agriculture
    Some Possibilities

    Pre-Aryan


    It Could be Pre-Aryan as traditional buffalo herders, Van Gujjars, Toda are vegetarians. you can see my post here.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post661324

    later Jainism influence

    In the times of Mahavira and in the following centuries, Jains criticized Buddhists and followers of the Vedic religion or Hindus for negligence and inconsistency in the implementation of ahimsa. In particular, they strongly objected to the Vedic tradition of animal sacrifice with subsequent meat-eating, and to hunting.[5][63][64][65][66][67]
    Some Brahmins—Kashmiri Pandits, Bengali Brahmins and Saraswat Brahmins—have traditionally eaten meat (primarily seafood). However, in regions with strong Jain influence such as Rajasthan and Gujarat, or strong Jain influence in the past such as Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, Brahmins are strict vegetarians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_vegetarianism

    Indo-greeks/Thracians


    The Ctistae or Ktistai (Greek: κτίσται) were a group/class among the Mysians of ancient Thracian culture.

    The Mysians avoided consuming any living thing, and therefore lived on such foodstuffs as milk and honey. For this reason, they were referred to as "god-fearing" and "capnobatae" (kapnobatai) or "smoke-treading".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctistae

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    I just came to point out, that you are talking about genes, not about language. You cannot see language from DNA.

    And once again we see how unreliable it is to guess language from the genes. In this very same comment you said both of these:
    [1] that the lack of certain lineage could testify about the absence of certain language;
    [2] that the lack of certain lineage could not testify about the absence of certain language.

    Contradictory claims = unreliable method.
    Linguistically, According to you, which are the possible Vedic/Sanskrit speaker's homeland before their arrival to South Asia?
    Could Western Balkans be a possible homeland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Linguistically, According to you, which are the possible Vedic/Sanskrit speaker's homeland before their arrival to South Asia?
    Could Western Balkans be a possible homeland?
    I think there is no evidence supporting that. There are indisputable consecutive loanword layers in Uralic: Pre-Proto-Aryan > Proto-Aryan > Proto-Iranian. So there really is no other viable homeland solution than the Lower Volga - Ural region and the cultures there in the 3rd millennium BC.

    The oldest chariot remains are found around 2000 BC, so the Proto-Aryan chariot vocabulary proves that only after that time the dispersal of Late Proto-Aryan has happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Regarding the dating of Rig Veda. How would you explain this or what's your take on this?

    The battle between Aryan vs Pani.



    Rig Veda verse on where Rasa river located

    The Nadistuti sukta (Sanskrit: नदिस्तुति सूक्त), "hymn of praise of rivers", is hymn 10.75 of the Rigveda.

    Verse 6 adds northwestern rivers (tributaries of the Indus flowing through Afghanistan and north-western Pakistan),




    Attachment 44053


    Rasa is a tributary of Kabul flowing through Afghanistan and north-western Pakistan

    still, we can further identify Rasa and other rivers,

    Trishtama - Kunar ( Tri = based on three main river tributaries of it or first tributary of Indus that people will come across if they are moving from North towards Kabul )
    Sarastu - Aligrama ( left of kunar )
    Rasa - Swat ( To the right)

    Battle Location: Aryan vs Pani on Rasa river, a tributary of Kabul likely Swat river located in Eastern Afghanistan/NW Pakistan.

    It is discussed in more detail here

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post755498



    A parallel historical event.

    The Cophen campaign





    Is it just a coincidence both the times it is the same place/geography with cattle being the specialty of the war trophy.?




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panis
    https://www.unomaha.edu/internationa...re%203.17B.jpg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadistuti_sukta
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cophen_campaign
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%9Bvaka
    I read that verse in Sanskrit , then listened to it in the ghana pata style on a mp3 file I have. The English translation completely misses out on the overall allegorical meaning of it and rather truncates into something banal. In Sanskrit , it comes across as a more allegorical - philosophical hymn to me. The Panis whatever they were were not really the point, rather they seem to be a lesser form of the Rakshasa and seem to represent an impediment or a negative force which need to be removed by Vedic deities.
    Last edited by pegasus; 05-05-2021 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    I read that verse in Sanskrit , then listened to it in the ghana pata style on a mp3 file I have. The English translation completely misses out on the overall allegorical meaning of it and rather truncates into something banal. In Sanskrit , it comes across as a more allegorical - philosophical hymn to me. The Panis whatever they were were not really the point, rather they seem to be a lesser form of the Rakshasa and seem to represent an impediment or a negative force which need to be removed by Vedic deities.


    Even if it's allegorical, is it not possible it is an allegory based on a historical event?


    Allegories on historical events allow the writer to provide his view of why and how an event took place.

    https://penandthepad.com/allegory-st...s-8566836.html

    Here is an article describing various historical events as allegory through both images and text.

    HISTORY AS ALLEGORY

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2329033...o_tab_contents

    From the article two types of text allegories

    Pragmatic:
    Metaphysical or mystical-type: because it assumes some kind of occult or invisible connection between two events or individuals discussed.

    What you describe Is it not somewhat similar to the Metaphysical type?



    Regarding the Pani tribe, there is likely historical evidence for the existence of a tribe by that name and still exists in the same region by that name.

    Panini based on the name and location could likely from the Pani tribe.

    Panini Devanāgarī: (पाणिनि); a patronymic meaning "descendant of Pani" was an ancient Indian grammarian from Gandhara.
    Nothing certain is known about Pāṇini's personal life. In an inscription of Siladitya VII of Valabhi, he is called Śalāturiya, which means "man from Salatura". This means Panini lived in Salatura of ancient Gandhara, which likely was near Lahor, a town at the junction of Indus and Kabul rivers.[d][47][48]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%8...87ini#Location

    There is still a tribe by this name - Panni tribe

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panni_(Pashtun_tribe)
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 05-08-2021 at 06:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Even if it's allegorical, is it not possible it is an allegory based on a historical event?





    https://penandthepad.com/allegory-st...s-8566836.html

    Here is an article describing various historical events as allegory through both images and text.

    HISTORY AS ALLEGORY

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2329033...o_tab_contents

    From the article two types of text allegories

    Pragmatic:
    Metaphysical or mystical-type: because it assumes some kind of occult or invisible connection between two events or individuals discussed.

    What you describe Is it not somewhat similar to the Metaphysical type?



    Regarding the Pani tribe, there is likely historical evidence for the existence of a tribe by that name and still exists in the same region by that name.

    Panini based on the name and location would likely from the Pani tribe.





    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%8...87ini#Location

    There is still a tribe by this name - Panni tribe

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panni_(Pashtun_tribe)
    Depicting history as allegory is one thing but that does mean it is gospel , you need concrete evidence to establish that. Panini lived in the Classical Age a good millennia after these verses were composed, also I don't think it would make sense that one of the most esteemed Sanskrit scholars to be named after a group which clearly have a negative connotation. Also given that Vedic Sanskrit words can have very divergent meanings has to be taken into account,
    Last edited by pegasus; 05-08-2021 at 07:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Depicting history as allegory is one thing but that does mean it is gospel , you need concrete evidence to establish that. Panini lived in the Classical Age a good millennia after these verses were composed, also I don't think it would make sense that one of the most esteemed Sanskrit scholars to be named after a group which clearly have a negative connotation. Also given that Vedic Sanskrit words can have very divergent meanings has to be taken into account,

    Just because two tribes or ethnicities had a battle sometime in the past doesn't mean they have to be enemies forever, right? they could mingle as well things can change over time as well, isn't it? Meaning of pani also changes from rig veda to shatapata brahmana to bhagavatha purana to niruktha.

    https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pani

    Yāska’s Nirukta states that their profession was trade and commerce.
    Yaska precedes panini so during panini time the meaning of pani would be different from that during Rig Veda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C4%81ska

    We don't have evidence of what pani's would have characterized Aryans as during battle likely or obviously not nice.

    They are also mentioned as one of the participating tribes in the Battle of Ten Kings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings



    Here is a comprehensive report for a case against the Aryan invasion as suggested by Sir Mortimer Wheeler based on archeological grounds.

    THE MYTHICAL MASSACRE AT MOHENJO-DARO

    https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedi...-mohenjo-daro/

    Here is the summary,

    Thus stands the evidence in the case against Indra and the Aryans, or to be less specific, against the idea of a “final massacre” by whomever you prefer. The contemporaneity of the skeletal remains is anything but certain. Whereas a couple of them definitely seem to represent a slaughter, in situ, the bulk of the bones were found in contexts suggesting burials of the slopiest and most irreverent nature. There is no destruction level covering the latest period of the city, no sign of extensive burning, no bodies of warriors clad in armor and surrounded by the weapons of war. The citadel, the only fortified part of the city, yielded no evidence of a final defence. (See photograph on page 4.)

    Is it not because of inadequate excavation either,

    what is the material evidence to substantiate the supposed invasion and massacre? Where are the burned fortresses, the arrowheads, weapons, pieces of armor, the smashed chariots and bodies of the invaders and defenders? Despite the extensive excavations at the largest Harappan sites, there is not a single bit of evidence that can be brought forth as unconditional proof of an armed conquest and destruction on the supposed scale of the Aryan invasion.
    Sir Mortimer Wheeler put it, “Indra stands accused” of destroying the cities of the Harappan civilization and of the responsibility for the “massacre” at Mohenjo-daro.
    Here wheeler quotes from Rig Veda battles also as evidence, did that factor in Rig Veda being dated to this particular period.?

    If Archeological records don't agree with Wheeler claims as his claim was based on some of the unburied corpses as archeological evidence,


    Would Rig Veda will still be dated to that particular period?
    or
    Dating of Rig Veda would according to a time period whenever Aryans arrived?
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 05-09-2021 at 12:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Just because two tribes or ethnicities had a battle sometime in the past doesn't mean they have to be enemies forever, right? they could mingle as well things can change over time as well, isn't it? Meaning of pani also changes from rig veda to shatapata brahmana to bhagavatha purana to niruktha.

    https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pani



    Yaska precedes panini so during panini time the meaning of pani would be different from that during Rig Veda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C4%81ska

    We don't have evidence of what pani's would have characterized Aryans as during battle likely or obviously not nice.

    They are also mentioned as one of the participating tribes in the Battle of Ten Kings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings



    Here is a comprehensive report for a case against the Aryan invasion as suggested by Sir Mortimer Wheeler based on archeological grounds.

    THE MYTHICAL MASSACRE AT MOHENJO-DARO

    https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedi...-mohenjo-daro/

    Here is the summary,




    Is it not because of inadequate excavation either,





    Here wheeler quotes from Rig Veda battles also as evidence, did that factor in Rig Veda being dated to this particular period.?

    If Archeological records don't agree with Wheeler claims as his claim was based on some of the unburied corpses as archeological evidence,


    Would Rig Veda will still be dated to that particular period?
    or
    Dating of Rig Veda would according to a time period whenever Aryans arrived?
    Pani strongly looks like its derived from Sanskrit Panitr, ie trader. The trader could be any ethnic group, so I am not really beholden to them being some distinct ethnic group.


    I have said this many times in the past, by the time they arrive, IVC urban centers were long abandoned, hypothetically if that did happen you would see an elite group take over and have powerful city states, there is nothing like that , you see that scenario in Northern Mesopotamia with the Mitanni not here. It looks likely , the Vedic Indo Aryans arrived after 1400-1300 BCE. Painted Ware ceramics in Central Asia actually pushes the date forward. Also if you note , 2 of those Steppe rich outliers date to around 1100-1000 BCE. It suggests the second Steppe rich wave was later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Pani strongly looks like its derived from Sanskrit Panitr, ie trader. The trader could be any ethnic group, so I am not really beholden to them being some distinct ethnic group.


    I have said this many times in the past, by the time they arrive, IVC urban centers were long abandoned, hypothetically if that did happen you would see an elite group take over and have powerful city states, there is nothing like that , you see that scenario in Northern Mesopotamia with the Mitanni not here. It looks likely , the Vedic Indo Aryans arrived after 1400-1300 BCE. Painted Ware ceramics in Central Asia actually pushes the date forward. Also if you note , 2 of those Steppe rich outliers date to around 1100-1000 BCE. It suggests the second Steppe rich wave was later.

    Using under-sea fossil evidence and its marine DNA, researchers of the study were able to conclude that climate change in the form of an increase in winter monsoon could have led to migration of people, thus causing the decline of IVC.
    Undersea fossil evidence would be Underwater archaeology?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_archaeology

    However, evidence also indicates that after about 1900 BCE, human population dwindled in the area, with large numbers of people moving eastward, towards smaller villages in the foothills of the Himalayas. By 1800 BCE, all the cities in IVC were fully abandoned.
    https://theprint.in/science/new-stud...sation/149856/

    If by 1800 BCE, all the cities in IVC were fully abandoned, what exactly does this mean were there any or no population left or how much population was left?
    So, if Aryan came in 1400 or 1100 pr 1000 BC, so far a period of nearly 700 to 800 years was it empty or nearly empty?

    In terms of geography, IVC was a large area so it was fully abandoned so all cities from Punjab, Sindh, Haryana, and Gujarat were abandoned?


    If or did IVC had people abandon en masse to elsewhere? Why are there significant non R1a haplogroups in those regions and regarding mtDNA isn’t non-Aryan still a large majority?

    Maybe I am missing something here.

    From the article,

    With large numbers of people moving eastward, towards smaller villages in the foothills of the Himalayas.
    Can large numbers who moved eastward fit in small villages in the foothills of the Himalayas?


    Would abandoned places be classified as lost cities?

    A lost city is a settlement that fell into terminal decline and became extensively or completely uninhabited, with the consequence that the site's former significance was no longer known to the wider world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_city#India

    Here 4 cities are mentioned for IVC, 2 in Gujarat, 1 each in Rajasthan and Haryana

    Is this list not complete?

    Is there land-based Archeological evidence for large-scale abandonment of IVC?
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 05-16-2021 at 05:06 PM.

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