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Thread: [split] proto-Indo-Iranian, Avestan and Sanskrit: Age & Separation Date

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monody View Post
    Hello. I would like to ask you in regards to the Indo-Aryans in the ancient kingdom of Mitanni. Were they Vedic Sanskrit speakers, or does this language shares common ancestry with it? I'm a bit confused on the nature of these early Indo-Aryans in Syria.
    No, but their language was closely related , so more of a sister branch. Their language has Dvandva and Prakrit forms.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....utliers/page10
    Last edited by pegasus; 06-13-2021 at 12:14 PM.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monody View Post
    So, the Mitanni spoke an ancient Indo-Aryan language that was a sister language to Vedic Sanskrit, right? Pretty interesting really.
    Yep probably diverged only around 1800 B.C or bit later when the first Indo-Aryan pioneer groups pushed into West Asia. Vedic and Mitanni Indo-Aryan likely just represent a small subset of Indo-Aryan dialects/languages in this period and much of Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asia was populated by Indo-Aryans during this age. In most cases not the majority of the population and local non-Indo-Iranians were the majority for a long time but Indo-Aryans left between Syria and India some toponyms/hydronyms (especially in Afghanistan) and Y-DNA still found among modern-day populations in the region.

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    There is a really good lecture about the Mitanni and their chariots. She also talks about the unpublished letters from the 18th century B.C, which first mention Maryannu warriors.


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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monody View Post
    I do wonder if the Ra1 in certain Jewish and Arab groups in the region are from these guys?
    Impossible to say finally without more ancient DNA from Maryannu-related groups. Based on the close linguistic, ethnic and religious connection to Vedic Aryans they should be rich in R1a-L657, R1a-Y40 and Indo-Aryan specific R1a-Z2123 clades but it can not be excluded that they derive from some other set of Indo-Aryan Y-DNA rare or extinct among modern-day Indo-Aryans. Jews, who are surprisingly high in R1a-Z93 (founder effect among Ashkenazi Levites), are mainly under Z2122>F1345>CTS6, which is absent so far in South Asia and based on modern dna and currently published samples from Central Asia rather seems to be linked to early Iranics. It is common in Northwest Iran and parallel clades were found among Kangju and Central Asian Huns. R1a-Z93 is rare among Arabs outside the Gulf region but diverse in terms of origin. Most of it really seems to have arrived recently and often just diverged 1000 years ago from Baloch, Iranian, South Asian or Central Asian R1a. So it seems that Maryannu/Indo-Aryan R1a is very rare in the region today if not even extinct but like mentioned before ancient dna could show that for example, the Jewish-NW Iranian CTS56 clade arrived with Indo-Aryans.

  8. #65
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    Some of the R1a in Turkey looks Maryannu-related like for example these clades. Two are Y40 which is a rare R1a-Z94 clade today but peaks in Afghanistan and India. One is basal Y3* upstream of typical Indo-Aryan R1a-L657 and one is under a Z2123 clade which diverged around 1500-2500 B.C from Indian Z2123. But these Indo-Aryan-looking clades could of course arrive much later with Turks who picked it up in Central Asia or medieval migrations of Persian speakers.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y150771/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3*/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y931*/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Some of the R1a in Turkey looks Maryannu-related like for example these clades. Two are Y40 which is a rare R1a-Z94 clade today but peaks in Afghanistan and India. One is basal Y3* upstream of typical Indo-Aryan R1a-L657 and one is under a Z2123 clade which diverged around 1500-2500 B.C from Indian Z2123. But these Indo-Aryan-looking clades could of course arrive much later with Turks who picked it up in Central Asia or medieval migrations of Persian speakers.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y150771/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3*/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y931*/
    Likely the latter case, since other subcontinent-specific clades are also found in Turks. I think Mitanni-Aryan elites may have had different y-dna clades (possibly more r1b), though we can't really be sure without male ancient samples.

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  12. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    There is a really good lecture about the Mitanni and their chariots. She also talks about the unpublished letters from the 18th century B.C, which first mention Maryannu warriors.

    Bachvarova is also the author of 'From Hittite to Homer', an excellent book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Likely the latter case, since other subcontinent-specific clades are also found in Turks. I think Mitanni-Aryan elites may have had different y-dna clades (possibly more r1b), though we can't really be sure without male ancient samples.
    One of the Megiddo outlines with Steppe ancestry was R1a and for this period only Maryannu could brought R1a to this region also the Steppe ancestry of this outliner looks similar to the Steppe ancestry of Ror/Jatt (IAMC-like) what probably means that Maryannu and Vedic Indo-Aryans shared recent ancestry. Of course Maryannu could have picked very exotic Y-DNA on the way to Syria but based on their close linguistic and ethno-cultural relationship to Vedic Indo-Aryans there should be some overlap in terms of Z93 clades. R1b was probably also present because R1b groups already settled before Aryans in Iran and Central Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monody View Post
    I do wonder if the Ra1 in certain Jewish and Arab groups in the region are from these guys?
    The main Jewish/Ashkenazi Levite branch of R1a-Z93 has a sister branch most diverse in Iran. Both coalesce to a common ancestor around 800BC, too recent to infer a Mitanni origin but very much within the time period the Achaemenid Empire started ruling over exiled Jewish communities in Babylon.

    Arabs belong to numerous divergent subclades of Z93 and even Z282, I'm hard-pressed to associate any of them with the Mitani. As Coldmountains said, they likely arrived in the region relatively recently, probably around the Middle Ages from South-Central Asia.

    The rest of the R1a found in the Middle East presumably arrived with Turkic and Caucasian slave-soldiers, to a lesser extent Slavs. Regarding the latter, from what I've seen on YFull, this is mostly restricted to Turkey - likely the result of later Ottoman policies of Janissary recuitment.
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

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  18. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    The main Jewish/Ashkenazi Levite branch of R1a-Z93 has a sister branch most diverse in Iran. Both coalesce to a common ancestor around 800BC, too recent to infer a Mitanni origin but very much within the time period the Achaemenid Empire started ruling over exiled Jewish communities in Babylon.
    I've speculated about this here on AG as well. Considering the TMRCA dates, nearest relatives and the historical context it is hard for me to imagine that a West Iranian Z93 lineage became part of a priestly caste due to events unrelated to the second temple of Jerusalem. That would be one hell of a coincidencr if it did. This would fit with the suggested Zoroastrian influences on Judaism.

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