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Thread: J1 in Scotland

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA (P)
    J-FGC4422
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    J1c

    Scotland England

    J1 in Scotland

    Hello, I am from Scotland and my haplogroup is J FGC4422, which is under FGC12 (I heard normally Scottish J1s are under YSC76?)

    I have quite a few close matches, some share my surname and some do not, but all of our surnames are of Scottish origin.

    Does anyone have an idea of how and when it came to Scotland?
    My STR values are -

    DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS19**=14, DYS391=10, DYS385=13-18, DYS426=11, DYS388=17, DYS439=11, DYS389I=13, DYS392=11, DYS389II***=29, DYS458=18, DYS459=8-9, DYS455=11, DYS454=11, DYS447=26, DYS437=23, DYS448=20, DYS449=24, DYS464=12-13-16-17, DYS460=11, Y-GATA-H4=10, YCAII=20-22, DYS456=13, DYS607=15, DYS576=19, DYS570=20, CDY=33-33, DYS442=12, DYS438=10

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  3. #2
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    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-BY32817
    mtDNA (M)
    T1a1l
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    E-CTS1273*

    Albania Kosovo
    J1-FGC4422 (or Y13481) is a downstream of Y10887 which can be considered a quintessentially Arab or Proto-Arabic cluster with a TMRCA of ~3,100 ybp, roughly coinciding with the first recorded mention of the Arabs in the Assyrian Kurkh Monoliths which date back to the mid-ninth century BCE (c. 852-879 BCE). On top of this, Y10887 is most diverse and prevalent across the Arab world. This is in turn true for FGC4422 which is also spread across Arabic-speaking nations and has a TMRCA of ~2,900 ybp, so around the later periods of the ninth century BCE.

    I see on Yfull that there is a Scottish sample from the area of Renfrewshire, located on the Central Lowlands of Scotland. He is FGC4422>FT264818 which is an earlier offshoot of FGC4422, and so the TMRCA is also ~2,900 ybp. So far he has no matches on Yfull, so it is hard to say how this sample made its way to the British Isles or when.

    However, it is interesting to note that there was a presence of Arabs and related groups in Britain during the period of Roman rule, especially in service with or to the Roman army. For example, the Roman fort of Arbeia (c. 160 CE) located near South Shields on the northwestern coast of England, had a part of its garrison made up of squadrons from the Roman province of Mesopotamia. Hence the name that roughly translates to "fort of the Arab troops".
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 02-11-2021 at 04:20 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  5. #3
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    Brazil
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    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
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    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    In FTDNA's bigy blocktree we can observe J-FT264818 FT263648 FT264634 more 23 Private Variants - Average, one participant from Scotland and another - Unknow Origin, so you need your Big Y to compare with the other Scottish. The distance to the Unknown is big, more or les 2400 years considering YFull's J-FGC47805 TMRCA 2400 ybpinfo id:YF0656

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT264818/
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

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  7. #4
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    Scotland England
    I think the person on unknown origin is a descendent of the Ghamid tribe. We were grouped together in a project and he is FT264818+. I myself have only done an SNP test so far and will need to take Big Y in the future

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  9. #5
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    Interesting about this Arab fortress. One of my matches can trace his lineage back to Northumberland which is very close. The Graham J1 family, another Scottish surname, are also believed to be descended from a Roman man, they are under YSC76

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  11. #6
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    Albanian
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    Albania Kosovo
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinnerz View Post
    I think the person on unknown origin is a descendent of the Ghamid tribe. We were grouped together in a project and he is FT264818+. I myself have only done an SNP test so far and will need to take Big Y in the future
    If you are grouped together with the Arab sample belonging to the Ghamid tribe, then you could be FGC4422>FT264818>FGC47805. However, it is likely that you were grouped together only at the FT264818 level, and should cluster with the Scottish sample from Renfrewshire.

    The Ghamid themselves are one of the tribes of the Hejaz (centred in Al-Bahah) and belong to the larger Azd tribal group. The Azd or Al-Azd initially inhabited the northwest of the Arabian Peninsula, however upon the collapse and fall of the Nabatean Kingdom many migrated further south even into Himyarite territory in present-day Yemen. The Ghamid are closest to the Zahran who also settled in Al-Bahah due to water shortages further north, the traditional dialects of these two tribes is considered to be among the closest to Classical Arabic.

    Based on this, it is tempting to place the origin of J1-FT264818 in the northwestern regions of the Arabian Peninsula, roughly corresponding to the Nabatean Kingdom, however the small sample size makes it hard to say anything with much certainty.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  13. #7
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    H5r*

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinnerz View Post
    Hello, I am from Scotland and my haplogroup is J FGC4422, which is under FGC12 (I heard normally Scottish J1s are under YSC76?)

    I have quite a few close matches, some share my surname and some do not, but all of our surnames are of Scottish origin.

    Does anyone have an idea of how and when it came to Scotland?
    My STR values are -

    DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS19**=14, DYS391=10, DYS385=13-18, DYS426=11, DYS388=17, DYS439=11, DYS389I=13, DYS392=11, DYS389II***=29, DYS458=18, DYS459=8-9, DYS455=11, DYS454=11, DYS447=26, DYS437=23, DYS448=20, DYS449=24, DYS464=12-13-16-17, DYS460=11, Y-GATA-H4=10, YCAII=20-22, DYS456=13, DYS607=15, DYS576=19, DYS570=20, CDY=33-33, DYS442=12, DYS438=10
    Can you say if its Gaelic/Norman etc in origin?
    YSEQ:#37; YFull: YF01405 (Y Elite 2013)
    WGS (Full Genomes Nov 2015, YSEQ Feb 2019, Dante Mar 2019, FGC-10X Linked Reads Apr 2019, Dante-Nanopore May 2019, Chronomics Jan 2020, Sano Genetics Feb 2020, Nebula Genomics June 2020)
    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
    Hidden Content
    FBIMatch: A------ (autosomal DNA) for segment matching DO NOT POST ADMIXTURE REPORTS USING MY KIT

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    Can you say if its Gaelic/Norman etc in origin?
    FGC4422 is of Arabic origin, this is what is confusing me because I'm unsure how it got here
    https://phylogeographer.com/mygratio...clade=J-Y13481

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  17. #9
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    E-Y31991>FT17866
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    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinnerz View Post
    FGC4422 is of Arabic origin, this is what is confusing me because I'm unsure how it got here
    https://phylogeographer.com/mygratio...clade=J-Y13481
    As others have said FGC4422 is indeed of proto-Arabic (well, probably) but it is also 2900 years old, which gives plenty of time for the Scottish subclade, J-FT264818, to migrate there during, for example, the Roman era. Its closest patrilineal relatives outside of Scotland might be extremely rare, or maybe the line died out completely considering how much Arabs test their yDNA.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

    Ruderico

    NW_Iberia_IA,80.4
    Berber_EMA,11
    Roman_Colonial,8.6

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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    If you are grouped together with the Arab sample belonging to the Ghamid tribe, then you could be FGC4422>FT264818>FGC47805. However, it is likely that you were grouped together only at the FT264818 level, and should cluster with the Scottish sample from Renfrewshire.

    The Ghamid themselves are one of the tribes of the Hejaz (centred in Al-Bahah) and belong to the larger Azd tribal group. The Azd or Al-Azd initially inhabited the northwest of the Arabian Peninsula, however upon the collapse and fall of the Nabatean Kingdom many migrated further south even into Himyarite territory in present-day Yemen. The Ghamid are closest to the Zahran who also settled in Al-Bahah due to water shortages further north, the traditional dialects of these two tribes is considered to be among the closest to Classical Arabic.

    Based on this, it is tempting to place the origin of J1-FT264818 in the northwestern regions of the Arabian Peninsula, roughly corresponding to the Nabatean Kingdom, however the small sample size makes it hard to say anything with much certainty.
    We know that Nabataean archers were well sought after in the Roman army. 1000 archers from Roman Arabia were stationed during the 2nd century CE for instance in Straubing in Germany in order to protect the Limes Germanicus. Looks like the Romans did the same at the Limes Britannicus. In 106 CE the Nabataean Kingdom became the Roman province Arabia Petraea.
    Last edited by Shamash; 02-12-2021 at 04:34 PM.

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