R1b-Z2103 overview descendant tree now available

[TigerMW]

The largest part of the R1b Basal Subclades "sub" project is R1b-M269>L23>Z2103. I've created an overview descendants tree for Z2103. This is a draft version. It is an overview so not every subclade is there - just the larger and early branches.

You can see and download high resolution versions of this chart on our About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

For the full tree in an outline format, go to the FTDNA public haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...R;name=R-Z2103

[JMcB]

The largest part of the R1b Basal Subclades "sub" project is R1b-M269>L23>Z2103. I've created an overview descendants tree for Z2103. This is a draft version. It is an overview so not every subclade is there - just the larger and early branches.

You can see and download high resolution versions of this chart on our About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

For the full tree in an outline format, go to the FTDNA public haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...R;name=R-Z2103

Nice chart!

[Silesian]

The largest part of the R1b Basal Subclades "sub" project is R1b-M269>L23>Z2103. I've created an overview descendants tree for Z2103. This is a draft version. It is an overview so not every subclade is there - just the larger and early branches.

You can see and download high resolution versions of this chart on our About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

For the full tree in an outline format, go to the FTDNA public haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...R;name=R-Z2103

Thank you for your hard work. Is there anyway you could add 2 nodes from CTS-7822 Yfull?
Around the Ryazan-Oka river region.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...karivermap.png
CTS-7822*Ryazanskya oblast, Russia, 3300BC
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
CTS1450*-Mordoviya Russsia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/

[trdbr1234]

What do you guys make of the distribution of Z2103?

[TigerMW]

Thank you for your hard work. Is there anyway you could add 2 nodes from CTS-7822 Yfull?
Around the Ryazan-Oka river region.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...karivermap.png
CTS-7822*Ryazanskya oblast, Russia, 3300BC
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
CTS1450*-Mordoviya Russsia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/

What's the RC dating on the CTS1450 guy? Are these both Yamnaya?

Are there any other Z2103 ancient DNA guys that we could add?

[Silesian]

What's the RC dating on the CTS1450 guy? Are these both Yamnaya?

Are there any other Z2103 ancient DNA guys that we could add?

CTS-7822+ aka Z-2110 is branch of Z-2109 Yamnaya. We have not had any luck either, still waiting for 1 sample to show up, much like L51 Yamnaya. I think those Corded Ware L51 samples in Southeast Poland might have had some Bell Beaker cts-7822 company. Just waiting like everyone else.

[dsm]

What do you guys make of the distribution of Z2103?

Some thoughts and comments.

Z2103 appears to have 'emerged' around Samara Russia
Z2103 is (for some of us) a marker for Yamnaya (by this I am meaning Yamnaya Culture vs Yamnaya Horizon. And even more specifically, Yamnaya Horizon seems to include R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 and Z2103, and its cousin L51 and also must include some branches of I2. While Yamnaya Culture, only includes Z2103 and some I2.
Z2103 spread from Samara both south (to Kalmykia and beyond), and east into the *.stans countries.
Z2103 also spread south and into Anatolia
Z2103 also spread east approx 2,500 kms to Mongolia very early in Z2103's existance
Z2103 as Yamnaya Culture migrated into the Carpathian Basin, settled there and became traders in goods and horses
Z2103 spread into the middle east
Etc: etc:

[Coldmountains]

Some thoughts and comments.

Z2103 appears to have 'emerged' around Samara Russia
Z2103 is (for some of us) a marker for Yamnaya (by this I am meaning Yamnaya Culture vs Yamnaya Horizon. And even more specifically, Yamnaya Horizon seems to include R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 and Z2103, and its cousin L51 and also must include some branches of I2. While Yamnaya Culture, only includes Z2103 and some I2.
Z2103 spread from Samara both south (to Kalmykia and beyond), and east into the *.stans countries.
Z2103 also spread south and into Anatolia
Z2103 also spread east approx 2,500 kms to Mongolia very early in Z2103's existance
Z2103 as Yamnaya Culture migrated into the Carpathian Basin, settled there and became traders in goods and horses
Z2103 spread into the middle east
Etc: etc:

Considering that Afanasievo and Yamnaya still pick minor EEF on qpAdm and there seems to be no M417 or M269 in Khvalynsk (+not enough CHG in Khvalnysk) i personally would not say the Middle Volga/Samara region played a central role in the formation of PIEs and is where PIE clades like Z2103 were born. Rather somewhere more in the southwest and closer to the Don region.

[dsm]

Considering that Afanasievo and Yamnaya still pick minor EEF on qpAdm and there seems to be no M417 or M269 in Khvalynsk (+not enough CHG in Khvalnysk) i personally would not say the Middle Volga/Samara region played a central role in the formation of PIEs and is where PIE clades like Z2103 were born. Rather somewhere more in the southwest and closer to the Don region.

That could be possible. I today though, rely on the oldest known L23 and the oldest known Z2103 aBurials which are around Samara. And, progressive burials (newer in time) show a clear trail from Samara in many directions, not from the Don.

When and if aBurials of Z2103 show up around the Don which spans quite a distance from the Forrest Steppe zone to the open Steppes (where the Don + Volga almost meet) and predates the current oldest Z2103, I will happily agree with you. Also note that the current oldest Z2103 is actually from Orenburg which is over to the right of Samara. The opposite direction from the Don. But, all things are possible as more discoveries are published.

<edit> Added the below map that shows the Don & the Volga - Samara is on the map.
Don-Volga.jpg

[TigerMW]

What's the RC dating on the CTS1450 guy? Are these both Yamnaya?

Are there any other Z2103 ancient DNA guys that we could add?

CTS-7822+ aka Z-2110 is branch of Z-2109 Yamnaya. We have not had any luck either, still waiting for 1 sample to show up, much like L51 Yamnaya. I think those Corded Ware L51 samples in Southeast Poland might have had some Bell Beaker cts-7822 company. Just waiting like everyone else.

Let me ask this another way: I have the Reich database.
What sample number are you saying is CTS7822?
Which sample number is CTS1450? Who made those calls?

I only see Z2103 and Z2103>M12149>Z2106 listed for this age around 3000 BC.