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Thread: pre-print genetic differentiation at the site of Kulubnarti in Christian Period Nubia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses View Post
    It looks like this Christian nubians are more CHG/AnatoliaN than modern nubians maybe that's why they didn't form a clade with them , because the Eurasian part in modern nubians is more arabian
    But in my analyzes modern nubians already carry this ancestries (more than arab sudanese and Beja) , the Halfaween shows the highest of this ancestry specially AnatolianN which i thought earlier was egyptian admixture.
    You literally have no way of knowing that modern Nubians are more CHG/AnatoliaN than the Sudanese Arabs.You could make the case for the Beja, who plot towards Horners and carry more of that ancient cushitic component and less of the recent Eurasian ancestry than the Nubians/Arabs

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    You literally have no way of knowing that modern Nubians are more CHG/AnatoliaN than the Sudanese Arabs.You could make the case for the Beja, who plot towards Horners and carry more of that ancient cushitic component and less of the recent Eurasian ancestry than the Nubians/Arabs
    Nubians have more European affinity in different analyzes which indicate AnatolianN ancestry , while Sudane arab more arabian affinity.
    Last edited by Ramses; 02-20-2021 at 07:20 AM.

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    Was anyone else thrown off at first when the publication said Kulubnarti physically grouped with Wadi Halfans?

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    Just want to get some folks gears turning when looking at the different profiles of Christian Nubians vs East African Pastoralists.
    IMO its like the elephant in the room when speaking of Central African/Saharan/Sahelian affinities in Sudanese.

    On the Y DNA Standpoint most of these guys are V68 derived while the Pastoralists are mainly Z830 lineages.

    Looking at maternal linages, The Pastoralists had strong M1, Strong L3, notable L4 and Little to no L0, L1 and L2.
    The Nubians on the other hand show almost an opposite profile with No M1, little L3, Strong L0 and L2.

    Their is a bit of overlap in some lineages but the bulk of the African specific diversity is tied to two totally separate groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Just want to get some folks gears turning when looking at the different profiles of Christian Nubians vs East African Pastoralists.
    IMO its like the elephant in the room when speaking of Central African/Saharan/Sahelian affinities in Sudanese.

    On the Y DNA Standpoint most of these guys are V68 derived while the Pastoralists are mainly Z830 lineages.

    Looking at maternal linages, The Pastoralists had strong M1, Strong L3, notable L4 and Little to no L0, L1 and L2.
    The Nubians on the other hand show almost an opposite profile with No M1, little L3, Strong L0 and L2.

    Their is a bit of overlap in some lineages but the bulk of the African specific diversity is tied to two totally separate groups.
    Yeah the fact the L3 linages that were present included western L3b the Sudanese but absent in the pastoralists was very interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Just want to get some folks gears turning when looking at the different profiles of Christian Nubians vs East African Pastoralists.
    IMO its like the elephant in the room when speaking of Central African/Saharan/Sahelian affinities in Sudanese.

    On the Y DNA Standpoint most of these guys are V68 derived while the Pastoralists are mainly Z830 lineages.

    Looking at maternal linages, The Pastoralists had strong M1, Strong L3, notable L4 and Little to no L0, L1 and L2.
    The Nubians on the other hand show almost an opposite profile with No M1, little L3, Strong L0 and L2.

    Their is a bit of overlap in some lineages but the bulk of the African specific diversity is tied to two totally separate groups.
    PN L0s:
    PN (Elmenteitan)- L0a1d
    PN (other)- L0a2d
    PN (other)- L0a*
    PN (other)-L0f2a1

    While the Nubian samples have 5 L0a1a1.Don't know how 4 PN samples + 2 PIA with various subclades of L0 is weak while 5 Nubian L0a1a1 samples makes it strong. Let's not forgot there's also L0f in a bronze age levantine sample but this lineage is largely absent in modern NE Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    PN L0s:
    PN (Elmenteitan)- L0a1d
    PN (other)- L0a2d
    PN (other)- L0a*
    PN (other)-L0f2a1

    While the Nubian samples have 5 L0a1a1.Don't know how 4 PN samples + 2 PIA with various subclades of L0 is weak while 5 Nubian L0a1a1 samples makes it strong. Let's not forgot there's also L0f in a bronze age levantine sample but this lineage is largely absent in modern NE Africa.
    Definitely a mistake on my part. Maybe i was thinking those L0s and L4s were originally the resident MOTA/Hadza/Forager lineages? Absence of M1 in BOTH group at Kulubnarti is still striking.

    And this begs the question.....How far north do we consider the Y dna of both groups coming from and do we consider any of the L and M1 lineages to be northern maternal counterparts entering Sub Saharan Africa?

    For instance a lineage like M1, especially M1a is seen in Africa as Horn of African derived subclades where they are found, the same for lineages like L3x/i/f..... and if we remove all this L and M1 diversity and just think of it as "East African" that leaves us with only 4 of 38 real Eurasian lineages coming from the North with Pastoralists. Im not quite ready to buy this. I think there could be a long discussion about lineages like M1a who's diversity "originates in the Horn of Africa" vs these lineages originating in their northern counterparts and having diversity that simply retained by Horn Africans. M1a and how it related to AA lineages and diversity look South to North. But the paternal lineages look North to South. Anyway....

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    Guys, i have a question, one of them should be the Proto Afro-Asiatic marker.

    Is it E-M34 (Natufian) or E-M78?

    Afro-Asiatic shoouldn't be older than ~12-14 thousand years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Definitely a mistake on my part. Maybe i was thinking those L0s and L4s were originally the resident MOTA/Hadza/Forager lineages? Absence of M1 in BOTH group at Kulubnarti is still striking.
    Well it was only 66 individuals with heavy recent West Eurasian maternal ancestry.I wouldn't be surprised once more Sudanese Nubians or Cushitic Beja/Blemmyes graves are excavated that M1a would show up.We already have a couple Ancient Egyptians who were M1 (presumably M1a).

    What I did notice is that even modern Sudan has far less M1a today, the Beja have 4% M1a vs Somali 15%, Amhara 16% & Beta Israel 19% but then again Sudan also has a strange phenomenon where the SSA maternal lineages clearly dominate. As shown with these christian period Nubians that as history progressed and major demographic changes happened they mostly probably affected the maternal lineages of the Sudanese including the Beja while the Horn never had to face such challenges which is why it was much easier to retain the more natural balance of MENA & SSA related lineages and keep lineages that were most likely lost in NE Africa.



    For instance a lineage like M1, especially M1a is seen in Africa as Horn of African derived subclades where they are found, the same for lineages like L3x/i/f..... and if we remove all this L and M1 diversity and just think of it as "East African" that leaves us with only 4 of 38 real Eurasian lineages coming from the North with Pastoralists. Im not quite ready to buy this. I think there could be a long discussion about lineages like M1a who's diversity "originates in the Horn of Africa" vs these lineages originating in their northern counterparts and having diversity that simply retained by Horn Africans. M1a and how it related to AA lineages and diversity look South to North. But the paternal lineages look North to South. Anyway....
    I think M1a was an indigenous hg maternal lineage of NE Africa with M1b being the NW African variant considering M1b was found in a early Neolithic Moroccan sample.M1 and probably N1 are early back-migrants from West Eurasia (via Levant) into North Africa.I think it's clear that M1a arrived in the Horn from the North and I think ancient dna from NE Africa (Egypt + N.Sudan) will prove it.
    Last edited by drobbah; 03-02-2021 at 07:24 PM.
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    Is M1 the only subclade of M whose distribution is primarily outside of South/Southeast/East Asia?

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