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Thread: pre-print genetic differentiation at the site of Kulubnarti in Christian Period Nubia

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    To be fair to him, I don't think the Egyptian language is particularly close to Cushitic. It's typically seen as closer to Semitic and Berber, although If I remember correctly there are some arguments that that might be due to early contacts between proto-Egyptian speakers and early speakers of those other afroasiatic languages.
    Egyptian is close to Semitic geographically, but linguistically, it shares its conjugation and most of its basic vocabulary with Chadic and Cushitic rather than Semitic. Gábor Takács studied the basic vocabulary of Egyptian and concluded that it may originally have been a Northern AA language related to Semitic, but its current form is closer to Southern AA languages especially Chadic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layers of the oldest Egyptian lexicon VIII: Numerals* - Gábor Takács
    The first two, i.e., the most elementary and primary numerals, are evidently North Afro-Asiatic with no match in the southern block of the phylum, which clearly suggests an aboriginal northern affiliation of Egyptian just like the common North Afro-Asiatic apophony penetrating Semitic, Egyptian, and Berber morphology. But the obvious South Afro-Asiatic nature of Egyptian “three” and “four” seems to testify to later renewed ties of Proto-Egyptian with the southern block, i.e., a secondary areal cohabitation, which agrees quite neatly with the lack of the prefix conjugation, an isogloss in the whole phylum shared by both Egyptian and Chadic grammar, which is paralleled by the undeniable domination of South Afro-Asiatic items in the overwhelming majority of Egyptian anatomical terminology, let alone the multitude of exclusively Egypto-Chadic lexical isoglosses.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adules View Post
    Old Kingdom Egyptians were already leaked to be Neolithic Levantine/Similar so their haplogroups should be the same or similar.
    Late Mesolithic Egyptians were very likely similar to Natufians, so put the parallel.

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    The West Eurasia - Africa PCA shows these Christian Period Nubians were intermediate between West Eurasians and (South Sudanese-like) Nilotic groups. The range seems to fit quite well with some modern Sudanese (Nubians, Beja and Arabs), although modern groups have new types of admixture not found in these samples. Even the outliers are not that far removed, they are still much closer to the core group from both cemeteries than to samples from Egypt or South Sudan.


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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RagingBull View Post
    Egyptian is close to Semitic geographically, but linguistically, it shares its conjugation and most of its basic vocabulary with Chadic and Cushitic rather than Semitic. Gábor Takács studied the basic vocabulary of Egyptian and concluded that it may originally have been a Northern AA language related to Semitic, but its current form is closer to Southern AA languages especially Chadic.
    Isn't Chadic associated with R1b-V88?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RagingBull View Post
    The title is clearly wrong. Their paternal lineages are distinct, the supplementary data itself notes that the Y-DNA of S cemetery inviduals are predominantly of West Asian origin while the Y-DNA of R cemetery inviduals are predominantly of African orign.

    Supplementary Figure 6 is very telling.
    Haplogroup LT became haplogroup L and T ,... 42000 years ago ............it is stated as West-eurasian ..............where is West-Eurasian ......................LT came from K-M9 haplogroup which also has R, N, O haplogroups


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    How does U5a up in Medieval Nubia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses View Post
    1-Why do you assume the Nobatians were "Dinka" like genetically just because they spoke nilo-saharan language, they could have been Cushitic-like who happen to have spoken
    Nilo-saharan language.
    2-We don't know how much "Nobatian" admixture this Christian nubians had , it could be 20% or 30%
    3-The African Mtdna in this samples is ~40% to 50% which could account for the remaining Nilotic admixture.
    The original Nobatae migrated from what is now Darfur where an isolated Nubian language, Midob, is still spoken up to this day. We don’t have any autosomal DNA from the Midob, but they generally look like their Eastern Sudanic neighbors like the Taman and Arabized Masalit, who we know are genetically quite distinct from Cushitic and Nilotic (e.g. Dinka) speakers but more similar to the latter. The other attested Nubian languages besides the northern dialects of Nobiin, Kenzi, and Dongolawi are Birgid in Darfur (it’s speakers are now Arabized) and Hill Nubian in the Nuba mountains near the border with South Sudan.

    Meroe was disestablished in 350 AD and quickly replaced by Nobatia in 400 AD; the other two Christian kingdoms were established much later in the 7th century. The last known Meroitic inscription is dated to the 5th century but I think its very likely Meroitic continued to be spoken by some communities in Lower Nubia for generations after it was officially replaced by Old Nubian. The Nobatae were nomads and must have been a jarring site to the sedentary, riverine Kushites. I think it’s very possible that these two communities existed alongside but separately from each other for generations if not centuries, at least in some localities. This scenario wouldn’t be to different from other examples across the continent where nomadic pastoralists and farmers occupy the same space.

    These hypothetical barriers (I obviously have no concrete evidence) must have broken down at some point, which would explain the genetic affinities of present day Nubians and Sudanese Arabs, who have excess Dinka-related - alongside Arabian - ancestry.
    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 02-19-2021 at 02:12 AM.

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    @Gihanga Could the Red & Black people this Aksumite King mentioned be the two differing groups that inhabited Nubia? The red are presumably the Cushitic/Afro-Asiatic riverine communities and the blacks the Darufurian like pastoralist peoples that inhabited Nubia?

    In many cultures of the Horn including Somalis, the reddish brown complexion (maariin) was what differentiated Horners from the Blacks (Nilotes,Omotics and Bantus).Lower Nubia was probably very ethnically heterogenous.

    By the might of the Lord of Heaven who in the sky and on earth holds power over all beings, Ezana, son of Ella Amida, Bisi Halen, king of Aksum, Himyar, Raydan, Saba, Salhin, Tsiyamo, Beja and of Kasu, king of kings, son of Ella Amida, never defeated by the enemy.

    May the might of the Lord of Heaven, who has made me king, who reigns for all eternity, invincible, cause that no enemy can resist me, that no enemy may follow me!

    By the might of the Lord of All I campaigned against the Noba when the Noba peoples revolted and boasted. `They will not dare to cross the Takaze' said the Noba people. When they had oppressed the Mangurto,

    Hasa and Barya peoples, and when the blacks fought the red people and they broke their word for the second and third times

    I arrived at the Kasu, fought them and took them prisoner at the confluence of the rivers Seda and Takaze (white and blue Nile)

    The towns of the Kasu with walls of stone which the Noba had taken were Tabito(?), Fertoti; and the troops penetrated to the territory of the Red Noba and my peoples returned safe after taking prisoners and booty, and killing by the might of the Lord of Heaven. And I erected a throne at the confluence.
    Last edited by drobbah; 02-19-2021 at 02:23 AM.
    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 2.8833% / 0.02883253
    93.8 Somali
    6.2 Yemenite_Dhamar

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 2.7252% / 0.02725184
    91.8 Somali
    8.2 Yemenite_Dhamar

    FTDNA myorigins 3.0:
    Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia
    94%
    Yemenite Jewish
    6%

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  13. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    @Gihanga Could the Red & Black people this Aksumite King mentioned be the two differing groups that inhabited Nubia? The red are presumably the Cushitic/Afro-Asiatic riverine communities and the blacks the Darufurian like pastoralist peoples that inhabited Nubia?

    In many cultures of the Horn including Somalis, the reddish brown complexion (maariin) was what differentiated Horners from the Blacks (Nilotes,Omotics and Bantus).Lower Nubia was probably very ethnically heterogenous.
    I am not sure about the red/black references but based on this transliteration of Ezana’s words, he obviously encountered a region occupied by several culturally and politically distinct groups. I might be wrong but I believe Ezana is referring to the Kushites where he mentions the “Kasu”.
    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 02-19-2021 at 02:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    It's supported by the X chromosome data. Which is kind of a head scratcher, maybe they were decendants of Nubian mercenaries who brought home brides or something.
    It's really not a huge difference. Their qpAdm model has the autosomals at 57% West Eurasian while the X-Chromosome is 63% West Eurasian. It's nowhere near the magnitude of sex-bias you see in Europe for example between steppe/Neolithic farmer y-dna.

    Not to mention, I'm not sure how you say with certainty which of the various mtdna lineages around the Red Sea are "Eurasian" or "African" unless you get a lot more (and older) data.


    EDIT: I misspoke earlier, while the X-chromosome was 63% West Eurasian, this isn't the same as mtdna lineages... but they do examine the origina of the mtdna lineages in another part of the paper:
    we find that 35 out of 63 individuals from both cemeteries who were not first-degree relatives sharing a maternal lineage belong to 11 mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups that originated and are presently distributed predominantly in West Eurasia, though the presence of such lineages for thousands of years also in northeastern Africa has been clearly established by previous work. The observation of 35 individuals carrying mtDNA haplogroups with origins in West Eurasia is what would be expected for anywhere between 43–68% of maternal ancestry at Kulubnarti coming from West Eurasian ancestors (based on evaluating whether each proportion in this range included 35 West Eurasian mitochondrial haplogroups within its 95% central confidence interval), which overlaps the 59–77% estimate of West Eurasian-related ancestry deriving from females
    35/63 mtdna lineages being West Eurasian... that's 55%. Compared with 57% Eurasian autosomal overall and 63% Eurasian on the X-chromosome.
    Last edited by K33; 02-19-2021 at 08:55 PM.

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