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Thread: Is there Greek admix among Greek_Kos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    In who exactly are you refered to? Modern Greeks are Ofc more steppe admixed. But we dont know exactly the source yet. It seems they have a balto-slavic drift but it Is very likely to received more steppe during Hellenistic or Roman times as Well. The rest are exactly as you mention. Myceneans were helladic people(high EEF) that received Anatolian admixture from Aegean/Anatolian West Coast And the Steppe related admixture Witch still remains a mystery If it was Yamnaya/Catacomb(R1b) or Corded/Sintasta/Bambyno(R1a).

    The most logical assumption would be that there were several migrations from the steppe. The first, about 3500 BC. This is the migration of the Neolithic Ukraine, I'm not sure that they fully reached Greece, but they definitely reached the Balkans. These are R1a-YP4141, R1b-V88, possibly R1b-PF7562. Perhaps I2a and even G2a from Tripoli. This is not a steppe migration, but rather a migration from the east. The second migration is about 3000 BC. This is a migration of the Yamnaya Budjak culture - Chernovoda culture. This is R1b-Z2103. The third migration is the migration of the Catocomb culture around 2500-2000 BC. This is R1b-Z2103. The fourth migration is that of the Babino culture around 2000-1500 BC. This is R1a-Z93. Apparently the third and fourth migrations were continuous. At the beginning around 2500BC the migrants were only R1b-Z2103, in the middle around 2000 BC the structure was 50% R1b-Z2103 and 50% R1a-Z93, and by 1500 BC the migrant composition consisted mainly of R1a-Z93. And apparently there was another fifth migration of the Sabatinovka culture after 1500 BC. This is R1a-Z93. These are probably Thracians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    The most logical assumption would be that there were several migrations from the steppe. The first, about 3500 BC. This is the migration of the Neolithic Ukraine, I'm not sure that they fully reached Greece, but they definitely reached the Balkans. These are R1a-YP4141, R1b-V88, possibly R1b-PF7562. Perhaps I2a and even G2a from Tripoli. This is not a steppe migration, but rather a migration from the east. The second migration is about 3000 BC. This is a migration of the Yamnaya Budjak culture - Chernovoda culture. This is R1b-Z2103. The third migration is the migration of the Catocomb culture around 2500-2000 BC. This is R1b-Z2103. The fourth migration is that of the Babino culture around 2000-1500 BC. This is R1a-Z93. Apparently the third and fourth migrations were continuous. At the beginning around 2500BC the migrants were only R1b-Z2103, in the middle around 2000 BC the structure was 50% R1b-Z2103 and 50% R1a-Z93, and by 1500 BC the migrant composition consisted mainly of R1a-Z93. And apparently there was another fifth migration of the Sabatinovka culture after 1500 BC. This is R1a-Z93. These are probably Thracians.
    Interesting.But what culture exactly you connect Greeks? And do You support the greco-armenian hypothesis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Interesting.But what culture exactly you connect Greeks? And do You support the greco-armenian hypothesis?
    I won't venture to guess which of them are Greek. Most likely the third and fourth migration. It is quite possible that they mixed in the steppe and came to Greece, if not as one people, then at least understood each other's language. The Babino culture itself, being Z93, was the least hostile to Z2103 and incorporated very many elements of the Catacomb culture. If Greek scholars distinguish between the Greeks and the Achaeans, then perhaps the third migration is the Greeks, and the fourth is the Achaeans. If other scientists do not distinguish them, then the third and fourth migrations should be combined into one. If the migration of the Catacomb culture to Greece is correct, and the hypothesis of the origin of the Trialeti culture from the Novotitorovka culture is also true, then Z2103 is what unites Greece and Armenia at the stage of about 2000 BC. This corresponds to the linguistic hypothesis of the early separation of Greek and Armenian from the common Indo-European language. As for the hypothesis of the origin of the Armenian language from Phrygian and its connection with Greek, through the Achaean language, it is also possible. But since there is practically no Z93 in both Greece and Armenia, it could only be a kind of light veil to some extent bringing these languages closer to the Indo-Iranian languages.
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 05-07-2021 at 07:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    I won't venture to guess which of them are Greek. Most likely the third and fourth migration. It is quite possible that they mixed in the steppe and came to Greece, if not as one people, then at least understood each other's language. The Babino culture itself, being Z93, was the least hostile to Z2103 and incorporated very many elements of the Catocomb culture. If Greek scholars distinguish between the Greeks and the Achaeans, then perhaps the third migration is the Greeks, and the fourth is the Achaeans. If other scientists do not distinguish them, then the third and fourth migrations should be combined into one. If the migration of the Catacomb culture to Greece is correct, and the hypothesis of the origin of the Trialeti culture from the Novotitorovka culture is also true, then Z2103 is what unites Greece and Armenia at the stage of about 2000 BC. This corresponds to the linguistic hypothesis of the early separation of Greek and Armenian from the common Indo-European language. As for the hypothesis of the origin of the Armenian language from Phrygian and its connection with Greek, through the Achaean language, it is also possible. But since there is practically no Z93 in both Greece and Armenia, it could only be a kind of light veil to some extent bringing these languages closer to the Indo-Iranian languages.
    I think we need a deeper look at the Z93 in modern Greece to draw conclusions. How does it compare to that found in others from the Middle East, in addition to groups like Jews and Arabs? I think it's jumping the gun a little to assume its from the direct north, considering most of the R1a due north of it today is the type found in central-eastern Europe, Z280.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    I won't venture to guess which of them are Greek. Most likely the third and fourth migration. It is quite possible that they mixed in the steppe and came to Greece, if not as one people, then at least understood each other's language. The Babino culture itself, being Z93, was the least hostile to Z2103 and incorporated very many elements of the Catacomb culture. If Greek scholars distinguish between the Greeks and the Achaeans, then perhaps the third migration is the Greeks, and the fourth is the Achaeans. If other scientists do not distinguish them, then the third and fourth migrations should be combined into one. If the migration of the Catacomb culture to Greece is correct, and the hypothesis of the origin of the Trialeti culture from the Novotitorovka culture is also true, then Z2103 is what unites Greece and Armenia at the stage of about 2000 BC. This corresponds to the linguistic hypothesis of the early separation of Greek and Armenian from the common Indo-European language. As for the hypothesis of the origin of the Armenian language from Phrygian and its connection with Greek, through the Achaean language, it is also possible. But since there is practically no Z93 in both Greece and Armenia, it could only be a kind of light veil to some extent bringing these languages closer to the Indo-Iranian languages.
    I see.Do you think we are going to found ever the truth about all these stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I see.Do you think we are going to found ever the truth about all these stuff?
    I really hope so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Their steppe ratios Are Not That high I would say. Dodecanese have the lowest steppe of all if i am not mistaken. Cretans have somewhere 20%.Its the Cyclades And north Aegean islanders who are more steppe admixed. These islands affected much more from mainland invasions And migrations.
    So what do you think on that , do Cretans have steppe ratios in line with Mycenaeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I think we need a deeper look at the Z93 in modern Greece to draw conclusions. How does it compare to that found in others from the Middle East, in addition to groups like Jews and Arabs? I think it's jumping the gun a little to assume its from the direct north, considering most of the R1a due north of it today is the type found in central-eastern Europe, Z280.
    Z93 is rare in Greece today and definitely less frequent than Balto-Slavic R1a clades (of 36 Greek sample at the ftdna ytree there are 12x Z283, 2x Z93 and the rest either basal R1a or not deeper tested) There are some basal R1a-Z94 clades in Greece like for example R-BY32037 (parallel to Indo-Aryan L657) but they are so rare that they could be from minor West Asian/Scythian admixture in the last 3000 years. I think we also have a Greek member here under another Z94 clade https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4768/. It is also worth mentioning that one Greek at Yfull is under https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5820/ which is a rare but Indo-Iranian Z283 clade (could be of West Asian origin among Greeks because it is found in Iran and Arabia)

    I personally don't think that Z93 played a big role among Proto-Greeks or Thracians. Surely there is lot of evidence for interactions between early Indo-Iranians and the linguistic ancestors of these groups but just like R1b-Z2103 was present but rare among early Indo-Iranians (becoming more frequent in the IA and LBA period) Z93 was probably present but rare among Proto-Greeks. Patriarchal steppe people of this age would influence each other but not so much assimilate foreign males. So a big part of modern day Greek Z93 is probably from minor later admixture and the affinity of Greek Z94 clades to Historical Indo-Iranians/West Asians or Sarmatians/Scythians point to that. Babino/West Abashevo Z93 would be rather Z94- and quite distant from modern day Indo-Iranian Z93. The Bulgarian MLBA sample with Z93 was also Z94-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Z93 is rare in Greece today and definitely less frequent than Balto-Slavic R1a clades (of 36 Greek sample at the ftdna ytree there are 12x Z283, 2x Z93 and the rest either basal R1a or not deeper tested) There are some basal R1a-Z94 clades in Greece like for example R-BY32037 (parallel to Indo-Aryan L657) but they are so rare that they could be from minor West Asian/Scythian admixture in the last 3000 years. I think we also have a Greek member here under another Z94 clade https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4768/. It is also worth mentioning that one Greek at Yfull is under https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5820/ which is a rare but Indo-Iranian Z283 clade (could be of West Asian origin among Greeks because it is found in Iran and Arabia)

    I personally don't think that Z93 played a big role among Proto-Greeks or Thracians. Surely there is lot of evidence for interactions between early Indo-Iranians and the linguistic ancestors of these groups but just like R1b-Z2103 was present but rare among early Indo-Iranians (becoming more frequent in the IA and LBA period) Z93 was probably present but rare among Proto-Greeks. Patriarchal steppe people of this age would influence each other but not so much assimilate foreign males. So a big part of modern day Greek Z93 is probably from minor later admixture and the affinity of Greek Z94 clades to Historical Indo-Iranians/West Asians or Sarmatians/Scythians point to that. Babino/West Abashevo Z93 would be rather Z94- and quite distant from modern day Indo-Iranian Z93. The Bulgarian MLBA sample with Z93 was also Z94-
    Z93 has a frequency of about 4% in the Dodecanese. None of the individuals carrying this line have uploaded on Yfull, so we cannot say much about their origin. IMO it is either proto-Greek, or it was brought from Hellenistic Anatolian/Levant populations.
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    So what do you think on that , do Cretans have steppe ratios in line with Mycenaeans?
    Cretans need something bronze age anatolian/Levantine and something extra Steppe with 'balto-slavic' drift on their modelings.They can't be modeled simple as Mycenean/Minoan like.If you use west asian refrences from anatolia/levant etc they will prefer them over the samples we have from Myceneans/Minoans and ofc the samples from Emporio2 Catalonia.With a few words they are more west asian admixed and their steppe is coming from bronze age Greeks but they also have received something more Northeast shifted.
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 05-07-2021 at 09:15 PM.

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