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Thread: Is there Greek admix among Greek_Kos?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    Z93 has a frequency of about 4% in the Dodecanese. None of the individuals carrying this line have uploaded on Yfull, so we cannot say much about their origin. IMO it is either proto-Greek, or it was brought from Hellenistic Anatolian/Levant populations.
    It is important to learn the subclades because e.g. in Italy
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y111548/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z676/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y150771/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y24669/

    Which group could have brought them? They may have early prescence.

    Concerning cultures like e.g. the Usatovo culture some people like Anthony write things like:

    Another aspect of the Usatovo economy was long–distance trade, probably conducted by sea. All six known Usatovo settlements overlooked shallow coastal river mouths that would have made good harbors. These river mouths are today closed off from the sea by siltation, creating brackish lakes called limans, but they would have been more open to the sea in 3000 BCE. The sherds of small ceramic jugs and bowls of the Cernavoda III and Cernavoda II types from the lower Danube valley made up 1–2% of the broken crockery in the settlement at Usatovo, perhaps carried in by longboat rowers engaged in coastal trade down to Bulgaria. But these Cernavoda vessels never were offered as gifts in Usatovo graves. Whole imported late Maikop–Novosvobodnaya pots were included as grave gifts in the two central graves in kurgans 12 and 13 in kurgan cemetery I at Usatovo, two of the largest kurgans; but Maikop pottery never occurred in the settlement. Imported Maikop pots had a very different social meaning from Cernavoda pots.

    Trade might have linked Usatovo to the emerging Aegean maritime chiefdoms of the EBI period, including Troy I. A white glass bead recovered from Usatovo kurgan cemetery II, kurgan 2, grave, 1 is the oldest known glass in the Black Sea region and perhaps in the ancient world. Glaze, the simplest form of glass, was applied to ceramics by about 4500–4000 BCE in northern Mesopotamia and Egypt. Glazes were made by mixing powdered quartz sand, lime, and either soda or ash and then heating the mixture to about 900°C, when it fused into a viscous state and could be dipped or poured. Faience beads were made of the same materials, molded into bead shapes, and glazed, beginning about the same time. But translucent glass, which required a higher temperature, has not been securely dated before the fifth dynasty of Egypt, or before 2450 BCE. The Usatovo bead and two others from Tripolye C2 Sofievka on the middle Dnieper are probably four hundred to seven hundred years older than that, equivalent to the first dynasty or the late Pre–Dynastic period. The Tripolye culture had no glazed ceramics or faience, so this vitreous technology was exotic. Almost certainly the Usatovo and Sofievka glass beads were made somewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean and imported. Another Tripolye C2 cemetery near Sofievka at Zavalovka, radiocarbon dated 2900–2800 BCE and similar to Sofievka in grave types and pottery, contained beads made of amber from the Baltic, perhaps the earliest expression of the exchange of northern amber for Mediterranean luxuries.

    In addition, two of the central dagger graves (k. 1 and 3) at Usatovo and an Usatovo grave at Sukleya on the lower Dniester contained daggers with rivet holes for the handle, cast in bivalve molds with a midrib on the blade.. This kind of blade appeared also in Anatolia at Troy II and contemporary sites in Greece and Crete (David Stronach’s Type 4 daggers). Like the glass, the Usatovo examples seem older than the Aegean ones—they should date to the equivalent of Troy I. But, in this case, the type might well have been locally invented in southeastern Europe and spread to the Aegean. Daggers with rivet holes but with a simpler lenticular–sectioned blade (without a midrib) certainly were made locally across southeastern Europe. They appeared in at least seven other Usatovo–culture graves, in graves at Sofievka on the middle Dnieper, and in Cotsofeni sites in the lower Danube valley, radiocarbon dated just before and after 3000 BCE]. Regardless of the direction of borrowing, the shared riveted dagger types of Usatovo and the Aegean point to long–distance contacts between the two regions, perhaps in oared longboats.
    https://erenow.net/ancient/the-horse...anguage/14.php
    I think Davidski had posted this link on this forum and I had not realized it was from Anthony. I am not a fan but this part is interesting nonetheless.

    Someone should see the direction of all borrowings though but only the fact that contact existed is important. Other than that it is important when they sample regions like this to have samples 1) with daggers 2) without daggers and also samples from the graves with non-local pots with a "social meaning" (here Maikop–Novosvobodnaya pots).

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    It is important to learn the subclades because e.g. in Italy
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y111548/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z676/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y150771/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y24669/

    Which group could have brought them? They may have early prescence.

    Concerning cultures like e.g. the Usatovo culture some people like Anthony write things like:



    I think Davidski had posted this link on this forum and I had not realized it was from Anthony. I am not a fan but this part is interesting nonetheless.

    Someone should see the direction of all borrowings though but only the fact that contact existed is important. Other than that it is important when they sample regions like this to have samples 1) with daggers 2) without daggers and also samples from the graves with non-local pots with a "social meaning" (here Maikop–Novosvobodnaya pots).
    Davidski said that Usatovo was not Z93 and most (not all) of the Italian Z93 clades seem to have a West Asian origin. They are under deep Indo-Iranian Z94 clades which often just diverged 3000-4000 years ago and unlikely would be present in the western part of Abashevo or Babino. Even less likely in earlier cultures of the western steppe. Babino or Balkan BA Z93 would be mostly Z94- and under clades rare among modern-day Indo-Iranians.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Davidski said that Usatovo was not Z93 and most (not all) of the Italian Z93 clades seem to have a West Asian origin. They are under deep Indo-Iranian Z94 clades which often just diverged 3000-4000 years ago and unlikely would be present in the western part of Abashevo or Babino. Even less likely in earlier cultures of the western steppe. Babino or Balkan BA Z93 would be mostly Z94- and under clades rare among modern-day Indo-Iranians.

    Analyzing the distribution of R-Y40

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y40/

    It is found among the Italians from the following regions so far,

    Chieti, Florence, and , Napoli

    Chieti is amongst the most ancient of Italian cities. According to mythological legends, the city was founded in 1181 BC by the Homeric Greek hero Achilles and was named in honor of his mother, Thetis. It was called Theate (Greek: Θεάτη) (or Teate in Latin). As Theate Marrucinorum, Chieti was the chief town of the warlike Marrucini. According to Strabo, it was founded by the Arcadians as Thegeate (Θηγεάτη).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chieti

    First settled by Greeks in the first millennium BC, Naples is one of the oldest continuously inhabited urban areas in the world.[6] In the ninth century BC, a colony known as Parthenope or Παρθενόπη was established on the Island of Megaride.[7] In the 6th century BC, it was refounded as Neápolis.[8] The city was an important part of Magna Graecia, played a major role in the merging of Greek and Roman society, and was a significant cultural centre under the Romans.[9]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples

    Magna Graecia (/ˌmæɡnə ˈɡriːsjə, ˈɡriːʃə/, US: /ˌmæɡnə ˈɡreɪʃə/; Latin meaning "Greater Greece", Ancient Greek: Μεγάλη Ἑλλάς, Megálē Hellás, Italian: Magna Grecia) was the name given by the Romans to the coastal areas of Southern Italy in the present-day regions of Campania, Apulia, Basilicata, Calabria and Sicily; these regions were extensively populated by Greek settlers.[1] The settlers who began arriving in the 8th century BC brought with them their Hellenic civilization which left a lasting imprint in those territories such as in the culture of ancient Rome. They also influenced the native peoples, especially the Sicilian Sicels, who became hellenised after they adopted the Greek culture as their own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia


    Napopli was part of Magna gracia , it is likely even Chieti as well, However though Florence is not anyway was major trading city.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_...ects-en.%20svg


    So, those Italians were likely or could descendants of Greeks settlers.

    There is historical evidence for migration of Greeks in all the regions wherever this sub clade R-Y40 is been reported.

    Isn’t it likely or could be Y40 is one the genetic marker of Proto-Greek ?

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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Analyzing the distribution of R-Y40

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y40/

    It is found among the Italians from the following regions so far,

    Chieti, Florence, and , Napoli



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chieti



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia


    Napopli was part of Magna gracia , it is likely even Chieti as well, However though Florence is not anyway was major trading city.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_...ects-en.%20svg


    So, those Italians were likely or could descendants of Greeks settlers.

    There is historical evidence for migration of Greeks in all the regions wherever this sub clade R-Y40 is been reported.

    Isn’t it likely or could be Y40 is one the genetic marker of Proto-Greek ?
    Italians have lot of Y-DNA from West Asia and most of their Z93 (Y40, YP413,..) clades very much point to this direction too. Y40 rather came from Anatolia or West Asia to Italy than from Greece. Y40 was likely present in the eastern part of Abashevo and not in the western part which later interacted with Babino and could influence Proto-Greeks. To be honest i don't think Z93 played an important role among Proto-Greeks settling in Greece/Balkan. We don't really see basal Z93 clades in the Balkan or Greece which can be excluded to come with West Asians or Sarmatians. Z93 represents not more than 1-2% of Greek or Italian Y-DNA and even in Italy much of the R1a looks Slavic or Central European. So it is more likely in my eyes that the very rare Z93 in these regions comes mostly from IA/Roman period migrations from West Asia/Anatolia which like we know had a massive impact in Italy.

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  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    To be honest i don't think Z93 played an important role among Proto-Greeks settling in Greece/Balkan.
    Which clade/s according to you was Proto-Greek?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    We don't really see basal Z93 clades in the Balkan or Greece which can be excluded to come with West Asians or Sarmatians.
    Which basal clades do we see in Balkan or Greece that can be can be excluded to come with West Asians or Sarmatians or anywhere else?

    Were Sarmatians were found to carry Y40 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Z93 represents not more than 1-2% of Greek or Italian Y-DNA and even in Italy much of the R1a looks Slavic or Central European.
    We can’t base ancient distribution on modern distribution,right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    So it is more likely in my eyes that the very rare Z93 in these regions comes mostly from IA/Roman period migrations from West Asia/Anatolia which like we know had a massive impact in Italy.

    Which IA/Roman period migrations from West Asia/Anatolia are you referring to ? Which tribe(s)/ ethnicity were involved ?


    As, there was migration from Rome to Anatolia and West Asia, did it make genetic impact as well?

    The Romanization of Anatolia (modern Turkey) saw the spread of Roman political and administrative influence throughout the region of Anatolia after its Roman acquisition. The aim of Romanization in Anatolia included the change from the previously dominant cultures, such as Persian and Greek, to a more dominantly Roman presence in any one region. Romanization usually included forcing the local populaces to adopt a Roman way of life - ranging from the local laws to its political system and the impact it had on the peoples living in the region. Anatolia was largely to completely resistant to the entire overhaul of culture as its systems of government were largely Hellenic. It already had local laws and customs that were similar to the Romans thus it was impractical Romanizing it. A more complete overhaul of culture can be seen in its more western provinces which were majority Latin after the success the Romans had at romanising places such as Gaul.[1]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Anatolia


    Slavic migration had huge genetic impact on Greece genetics, while Greek migration to wherever they went had little or no impact especially in West Asia and South Asia ? Is it ? and why is that?

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