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Thread: Presence of Peninsular Arab in Southern Europeans

  1. #61
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    My brother and father "score" some Berber/North African and some Saudi.


    I think it is trace or just calculator effect:




    Target: Brother_scaled
    Distance: 2.1503% / 0.02150330
    45.2 Norwegian
    18.6 Spanish_Soria
    17.2 Cossack_Kuban
    8.2 Spanish_La_Rioja
    5.0 Lak
    4.4 Saami
    0.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.6 Bantu_Kenya
    Target: Brother_scaled
    Distance: 3.1196% / 0.03119567 | R2P
    93.4 Norwegian
    6.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    Target: Brother_scaled
    Distance: 2.4564% / 0.02456403 | R3P
    77.0 French_Pas-de-Calais
    13.2 Cossack_Kuban
    9.8 Saami
    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 1.0495% / 0.01049542
    31.6 Spanish_La_Rioja
    14.0 Cossack_Kuban
    14.0 French_Pas-de-Calais
    11.8 Spanish_Soria
    10.4 Kubachinian
    5.8 Slovakian
    5.4 Norwegian
    3.6 Nganassan
    1.8 Icelandic
    1.6 Saudi
    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 1.2857% / 0.01285679 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    39.6 French_Pas-de-Calais
    16.2 Turkish_Rumeli
    13.4 Swiss_French
    12.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
    11.2 Cossack_Kuban
    3.6 Spanish_Soria
    3.2 Nganassan

    Here is individual samples:


    Target: Brother_scaled
    Distance: 0.8883% / 0.00888259
    18.6 Irish
    18.2 German
    17.0 Danish
    12.4 Dutch
    9.8 Saami
    9.0 Swiss_French
    7.4 Spanish_Soria
    2.0 Moroccan_South
    1.8 Welsh
    1.6 BedouinB
    1.0 Karelian
    0.6 Nganasan
    0.4 Adygei
    0.2 Spanish_La_Rioja

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 0.2145% / 0.00214511
    20.2 Spanish_Girona
    12.0 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    11.2 Dutch
    9.2 Polish
    7.8 French_Alsace
    7.2 German
    6.6 Basque_Spanish
    4.2 Adygei
    4.0 Irish
    3.6 Nganasan
    3.2 BedouinB
    3.0 Spanish_La_Rioja
    2.8 Swiss_French
    2.0 Saami
    1.8 French_Nord
    0.6 Danish
    0.2 Even
    0.2 Georgian_Imer
    0.2 Saharawi
    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 0.7009% / 0.00700944 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    24.8 Spanish_Girona
    22.4 Belgian
    12.0 French_Alsace
    11.6 Swiss_French
    8.0 Turkish_Deliorman
    7.6 Dutch
    6.8 Turkish_Rumeli
    5.6 Saami
    1.2 Nganasan
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 1.7288% / 0.01728791 | R3P
    51.6 VK2020_IRL_Eyrephort_VA = Germanic
    37.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o6 = South Euro
    11.0 RUS_Chalmny-Varre = Saami

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by randwulf View Post
    I was concerned my point would get lost with this kind of stuff. Your model for Poland with unscaled coordinates is not sufficient. It is a failed model. Your other unscaled models also are failed models. The result is too distant to be considered finished.

    The one exception where I prefer scaled coordinates is for the very ancient WHG-EEF-Steppe type models. It is better for those not to have the higher dimensions.

    You may have the last word.
    Leaving aside the talk about the models, how come the distances are getting weirder with unscaled coordinates?

    Code:
    Distance to:	Ajeje_Brazorf
    0.06861953	HUN_Koros_N:I1508
    0.08999306	Esan_Nigeria:HG02923
    0.09371617	Saudi:saudi1413
    0.10069762	Qiang_Danba:DBA01
    0.10090183	Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207
    0.10379277	CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA_o:91KLM2
    0.10449713	Mari:mari5
    0.11142298	MYS_LN:Ma912
    0.11406371	Sudanese:SUDANESE7
    0.11506168	Igorot:GS000019965
    0.11584429	Paniya:PY-6
    0.11778667	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1290
    0.12198467	GEO_CHG:KK1
    0.12439835	Yakut:455_A
    0.13298662	JPN_Jomon:I13882
    0.13412155	Even:even2682
    0.14419795	Ket:584_R01C01
    0.15025771	RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3
    0.16737781	Biaka:HGDP00454
    0.22697169	MAR_Taforalt:TAF010
    0.24024302	Papuan:HGDP00552
    0.24634480	Surui:HGDP00843
    0.25791423	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15
    0.28275613	Mbuti:S_Mbuti-2.DG
    0.52516184	Ju_hoan_North:B_Ju_hoan_North-4
    Why is it that unscaled hierarchical clustering also seem less consistent than scaled hierarchical clustering?

    Scaled
     


    Unscaled
     
    [1] "distance%=2.9299"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,51.4
    BALTIC_BA,12.6
    GANJ_DAREH,10.8
    CHG,10.4
    MIDDLE_EAST,10
    ANE,2.4
    TAFORALT,1.8
    WHG,0.6

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Leaving aside the talk about the models, how come the distances are getting weirder with unscaled coordinates?

    Code:
    Distance to:	Ajeje_Brazorf
    0.06861953	HUN_Koros_N:I1508
    0.08999306	Esan_Nigeria:HG02923
    0.09371617	Saudi:saudi1413
    0.10069762	Qiang_Danba:DBA01
    0.10090183	Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207
    0.10379277	CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA_o:91KLM2
    0.10449713	Mari:mari5
    0.11142298	MYS_LN:Ma912
    0.11406371	Sudanese:SUDANESE7
    0.11506168	Igorot:GS000019965
    0.11584429	Paniya:PY-6
    0.11778667	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1290
    0.12198467	GEO_CHG:KK1
    0.12439835	Yakut:455_A
    0.13298662	JPN_Jomon:I13882
    0.13412155	Even:even2682
    0.14419795	Ket:584_R01C01
    0.15025771	RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3
    0.16737781	Biaka:HGDP00454
    0.22697169	MAR_Taforalt:TAF010
    0.24024302	Papuan:HGDP00552
    0.24634480	Surui:HGDP00843
    0.25791423	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15
    0.28275613	Mbuti:S_Mbuti-2.DG
    0.52516184	Ju_hoan_North:B_Ju_hoan_North-4
    Why is it that unscaled hierarchical clustering also seem less consistent than scaled hierarchical clustering?

    Scaled
     


    Unscaled
     
    Is this your last word or am I supposed to answer? I didn't want to break my promise to give you the last word, but you asked questions.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    My brother and father "score" some Berber/North African and some Saudi.


    I think it is trace or just calculator effect:















    Here is individual samples:
    Scoring 3.2 beoduin b is not a calculator effect lol and also I see some Moroccan south admixture as well. This is legitimate North African and Arab ancestry

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     JerryS. (03-04-2021)

  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by maroco View Post
    Scoring 3.2 beoduin b is not a calculator effect lol and also I see some Moroccan south admixture as well. This is legitimate North African and Arab ancestry
    You are Arabic. My father and brother is North Italian and Swedish. It is impossible that they would have Berber admixture.
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 1.7288% / 0.01728791 | R3P
    51.6 VK2020_IRL_Eyrephort_VA = Germanic
    37.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o6 = South Euro
    11.0 RUS_Chalmny-Varre = Saami

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  9. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    You are Arabic. My father and brother is North Italian and Swedish. It is impossible that they would have Berber admixture.
    We don’t know what happened in history but it’s looks that way, if you are willing to share your father and brothers cords then I can run them

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  11. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by randwulf View Post
    Since you are relatively new, I want to offer an alternative view to the strongly worded opinions on scaled vs unscaled coordinates that are in favor of scaling. I almost always use unscaled coordinates. It needs to be said plainly that the unscaled coordinates are the original and actual PCA coordinates that are the output of the PCA process. The scaling process purposely distorts the PCA using the square root of the eigen values for each dimension of the PCA in order to exaggerate the most important lower dimensions and to minimize or eliminate nearly the higher dimensions influence. It has been estimated that scaling mostly eliminates the influence of dimensions higher than the 10th (if I remember correctly). If you want to see a visual for the information you are exaggerating or missing by scaling, I created a thread that walks through each dimension:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post566344

    So, I consider modeling with scaled coordinates like modeling with Duplo blocks and unscaled like modeling with original Legos. Each can be useful and each has its limitations. For example, every admixture test says you have Siberian. The question is "what is its source?" I would think it most likely is just sub-structure from Sweden. You don't need anything exotic to explain it. You don't need to ignore it, either. It's there and you already have a good explanation for it, most likely. The same may be true with the North African admixture that keeps popping up. It may be mediated through South Italian or Balkan sources to you. You likely can get good models with either set of coordinates that include Swedish and Southern European references. In your case, I don't see that you need any modern references from outside or far from Europe to explain your admixture. This minor, but real (in my opinion), admixture has explainable, European sources without resorting to exotic explanations.

    As for using scaled or unscaled coordinates, I think "to each his own". I always liked Legos more than Duplos. It allows for bigger mistakes, but better articulation, in my opinion. This issue has been debated ad nauseum, so I hope I can express my alternative thought without starting another long back and forth debate on it.

    Edit: I should add that in my earlier post, I included a North African reference in the proposed final model only because the post I quoted from you explicitly stated that you had North African ancestry and the coordinates provide some support for that. However, if that is not the case and you are guessing from admixture results that you have North African ancestry, I would remove that from the model as this admixture could be mediated to you through southern Europe, instead.
    The reason I believe the Siberian is my father's haplogroup (D5a2) may have contributed from it as well. I didn't mention it but he's not explicitly Polish but Russian as well. The coordinates are from Geneplaza, which I believe to be a bit bastardized as it is uploaded from my upload.

    The results I said aren't from speculation but rather from testing on my grandfather and father as well; the North African could likely be Sephardic Jewish but i am not sure. I appreciate your work; it seems that the unscaled matches the results from the testing sites more than the scaled, and my known ancestry. That's the only conclusion I have in regard to that. Thank you for your help

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  13. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokoski View Post
    The reason I believe the Siberian is my father's haplogroup (D5a2) may have contributed from it as well. I didn't mention it but he's not explicitly Polish but Russian as well. The coordinates are from Geneplaza, which I believe to be a bit bastardized as it is uploaded from my upload.

    The results I said aren't from speculation but rather from testing on my grandfather and father as well; the North African could likely be Sephardic Jewish but i am not sure. I appreciate your work; it seems that the unscaled matches the results from the testing sites more than the scaled, and my known ancestry. That's the only conclusion I have in regard to that. Thank you for your help
    Small amounts of North African admixture is normal for Southern Italians. You don't need a Sephardic Jew ancestor to have North African admixture because of this. If you can't trace a recent North African ancestor through genealogy, there's no need to obsess about it.

    If your father's maternal line is Polish, it is likely he falls here on the MTDNA tree (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/D5a2a1a1b/). From this far back in the past, you would not have any trace of East Eurasian admixture.

    Overall, if you cannot trace any of this admixture genealogically, I would just consider it normal trace admixture from the areas your ancestors came from.
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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    Quote Originally Posted by randwulf View Post
    Is this your last word or am I supposed to answer? I didn't want to break my promise to give you the last word, but you asked questions.
    Why should there be a "last word"? If you want, you could answer me or at least explain more clearly why my models are "failed". Then I am neither an expert nor a mathematician and I just say that the scaled coordinates are better in my opinion, but also your opinion is very useful for me to understand more.
    [1] "distance%=2.9299"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,51.4
    BALTIC_BA,12.6
    GANJ_DAREH,10.8
    CHG,10.4
    MIDDLE_EAST,10
    ANE,2.4
    TAFORALT,1.8
    WHG,0.6

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  17. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    Small amounts of North African admixture is normal for Southern Italians. You don't need a Sephardic Jew ancestor to have North African admixture because of this. If you can't trace a recent North African ancestor through genealogy, there's no need to obsess about it.

    If your father's maternal line is Polish, it is likely he falls here on the MTDNA tree (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/D5a2a1a1b/). From this far back in the past, you would not have any trace of East Eurasian admixture.

    Overall, if you cannot trace any of this admixture genealogically, I would just consider it normal trace admixture from the areas your ancestors came from.
    That is interesting that Poland falls under D5a2 in the Mrs a line. I’m not obsessed about it, just curious how it is reflected in my Dna and what not. My grandfather is part Sephardic Jewish/North African-hence why I have been searching for it rather than leaving it as a cluster with Southern Italians.

    My dad’s paternal line is polish. His maternal is more mixed but there are distant ancestors from Bashkortostan and Tuva in Central Russia, so I was wondering if that correlated. Overall, it’s appearing to be too much of a hassle to figure out.

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