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Thread: India’s largest known burial site is 3,800 yrs old, confirms carbon dating

  1. #11
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    According to Asko Parpola in "Royal "Chariot" Burials of Sanauli near Delhi and Archaeological Correlates of Prehistoric Indo-Iranian Languages." (October 2020)
    https://journal.fi/store/article/view/98032
    "The “chariots” of Sanauli do not have spoked wheels but solid ones, which would have been too heavy to be pulled by horses. That they actually were bull-drawn, two-wheeled carts is suggested also by the absence of horse skeletons or horse skulls, of the cheek-pieces used in driving the early horse-drawn chariots, and by the absence of the horse in the imagery of the Sanauli finds, which is dominated by the bull. A humped bull decorates the comb excavated there."
    In addition, the anthropomorphic figures on the coffin lid at Sanauli wear bull’s horns; their parallels in the Gungeria hoard are bucrania. Further, the three vehicles of the Sanauli royal burials can be compared with the copper sculpture of a cart and its rider pulled by two humped bulls from the Late Harappan site of Daimabad in Maharashtra.
    The Indus Civilization had bull-carts (Kenoyer 2004) – their Sanskritized Dravidian name śakaṭa- (from Proto-Dravidian *caṭṭakam) gradually replaced its Indo-European synonym anas in the Vedic texts (Parpola 2019a) – but no cart burials are known from the Mature Harappan culture. Without any predecessors in South Asia, the Sanauli cart burials are likely to be derived from an external origin."
    "An intermediate phase from the heavy solid or tripartite wheel to the light spoked wheel is the cross-bar wheel, which is already light enough to be drawn by horses (Littauer & Crouwel 1977), and such a “proto-chariot” is depicted in a BMAC-related cylinder seal from Tepe-Hissar III B (c.2000–1900 bce). A non-Harappan type of axe-adze characteristic of the BMAC (also at Tepe Hissar III C) was found from the last phase (c.2000–1900 BCE) of Mohenjo-daro (Wheeler 1968: 74, Fig. 12 nos. 13, 75, 124; Parpola 2015b). A disturbed elite grave at Zardcha-Khalifa in Tajikistan contained much BMAC pottery, a horse-headed bronze pin or sceptre, a pair of cheek-pieces of the Sintashta-Petrovka type, and a unique pair of bronze bits. Thus, the BMAC elite had horse-drawn chariots derived from the Sintashta culture by 1800 BCE."

    Attachment 43623
    Last edited by Kapisa; 03-01-2021 at 07:13 PM.
    Target: Kapisa_scaled
    Distance: 1.7453% / 0.01745296
    44.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    35.0 UZB_Bustan_BA
    18.0 KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1
    2.6 MNG_East_N

    Mitochondrial Haplogroup: R30b found in Shahr-I-Sokhta_BA1 subclades found in Swat IA:Leobanr, Katelai & Barikot Historic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    While I agree that denying is wrong, there is a large vocal minority that is doing this. We have 600 million Indians online, and the ones doing this is probably in hundreds, at most a few thousand. Most Indians aren't anti science since religion isn't usually mixed with education. This government will be gone one day and we will be back to usual on the genome release.

    The other issue is that this could become a national issue in India that highlights that most castes are very different. That doesn't work for national unity. All of South Asia has rabid nationalists that defy logic, and that includes India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

    I don't want this thread to get into the political realm so I'll stop here.
    It's not like you can tell someone's caste by looking at them.. It's only as important as you make it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    According to Asko Parpola in "Royal "Chariot" Burials of Sanauli near Delhi and Archaeological Correlates of Prehistoric Indo-Iranian Languages." (October 2020)
    https://journal.fi/store/article/view/98032
    "The “chariots” of Sanauli do not have spoked wheels but solid ones, which would have been too heavy to be pulled by horses. That they actually were bull-drawn, two-wheeled carts is suggested also by the absence of horse skeletons or horse skulls, of the cheek-pieces used in driving the early horse-drawn chariots, and by the absence of the horse in the imagery of the Sanauli finds, which is dominated by the bull. A humped bull decorates the comb excavated there."
    In addition, the anthropomorphic figures on the coffin lid at Sanauli wear bull’s horns; their parallels in the Gungeria hoard are bucrania. Further, the three vehicles of the Sanauli royal burials can be compared with the copper sculpture of a cart and its rider pulled by two humped bulls from the Late Harappan site of Daimabad in Maharashtra.
    The Indus Civilization had bull-carts (Kenoyer 2004) – their Sanskritized Dravidian name śakaṭa- (from Proto-Dravidian *caṭṭakam) gradually replaced its Indo-European synonym anas in the Vedic texts (Parpola 2019a) – but no cart burials are known from the Mature Harappan culture. Without any predecessors in South Asia, the Sanauli cart burials are likely to be derived from an external origin."
    "An intermediate phase from the heavy solid or tripartite wheel to the light spoked wheel is the cross-bar wheel, which is already light enough to be drawn by horses (Littauer & Crouwel 1977), and such a “proto-chariot” is depicted in a BMAC-related cylinder seal from Tepe-Hissar III B (c.2000–1900 bce). A non-Harappan type of axe-adze characteristic of the BMAC (also at Tepe Hissar III C) was found from the last phase (c.2000–1900 BCE) of Mohenjo-daro (Wheeler 1968: 74, Fig. 12 nos. 13, 75, 124; Parpola 2015b). A disturbed elite grave at Zardcha-Khalifa in Tajikistan contained much BMAC pottery, a horse-headed bronze pin or sceptre, a pair of cheek-pieces of the Sintashta-Petrovka type, and a unique pair of bronze bits. Thus, the BMAC elite had horse-drawn chariots derived from the Sintashta culture by 1800 BCE."

    Attachment 43623
    The Swat culture is the earliest accepted occurence of horses in South Asia

    Historically South Asia isn't really known for its horses from Vedic times through Kushan times up to the Mughal Empire, horses were imported from Central Asia.

    https://caravanmagazine.in/history/h...-early-indians
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 03-01-2021 at 08:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/74254040.cms



    I have been seeing this on social media as proof that no Aryans existed. Would be great if we could get some samples. Anyone know if they have gotten anything useful out?
    I believe the upcoming sample(s) are from Sanauli or Rakhigarhi (not confirmed though) and they are on that IVC cline. It would be several hundred years after the Vedic Indo Aryans land in the Western Gangetic Doab. Though it proves Copper Hoard and even Cemetery H are not indicative of the arrival of Indo Aryans, eventhough there is increased metallurgy.

    Here is a terra cotta tablet from Nepal likely dated to the Iron Age. You see distinct spoke wheeled chariots and four horses. Though IMO , chariots were largely abandoned for cavalry by the LBA/IA in S/C Asia, since there is no evidence of them in GGW or PGW, so it could be ceremonial or symbolic. Unless they find some Tollense like battlefield remains in Haryana, which has chariots but I doubt it. The fascinating part of the Tollense battle is that its like the Mahabharat of Northern Europe, a massive IA battle with a diverse group of fighters.





    Here are chariots from China , totally different culture and time but a similar design, which they adopted from Andronovo groups in Western China much earlier during the Shang Dynasty. So the only common factor are IIr nomads.

     
    Last edited by pegasus; 03-01-2021 at 09:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    According to Asko Parpola in "Royal "Chariot" Burials of Sanauli near Delhi and Archaeological Correlates of Prehistoric Indo-Iranian Languages." (October 2020)
    https://journal.fi/store/article/view/98032
    "The “chariots” of Sanauli do not have spoked wheels but solid ones, which would have been too heavy to be pulled by horses. That they actually were bull-drawn, two-wheeled carts is suggested also by the absence of horse skeletons or horse skulls, of the cheek-pieces used in driving the early horse-drawn chariots, and by the absence of the horse in the imagery of the Sanauli finds, which is dominated by the bull. A humped bull decorates the comb excavated there."
    In addition, the anthropomorphic figures on the coffin lid at Sanauli wear bull’s horns; their parallels in the Gungeria hoard are bucrania. Further, the three vehicles of the Sanauli royal burials can be compared with the copper sculpture of a cart and its rider pulled by two humped bulls from the Late Harappan site of Daimabad in Maharashtra.
    The Indus Civilization had bull-carts (Kenoyer 2004) – their Sanskritized Dravidian name śakaṭa- (from Proto-Dravidian *caṭṭakam) gradually replaced its Indo-European synonym anas in the Vedic texts (Parpola 2019a) – but no cart burials are known from the Mature Harappan culture. Without any predecessors in South Asia, the Sanauli cart burials are likely to be derived from an external origin."
    "An intermediate phase from the heavy solid or tripartite wheel to the light spoked wheel is the cross-bar wheel, which is already light enough to be drawn by horses (Littauer & Crouwel 1977), and such a “proto-chariot” is depicted in a BMAC-related cylinder seal from Tepe-Hissar III B (c.2000–1900 bce). A non-Harappan type of axe-adze characteristic of the BMAC (also at Tepe Hissar III C) was found from the last phase (c.2000–1900 BCE) of Mohenjo-daro (Wheeler 1968: 74, Fig. 12 nos. 13, 75, 124; Parpola 2015b). A disturbed elite grave at Zardcha-Khalifa in Tajikistan contained much BMAC pottery, a horse-headed bronze pin or sceptre, a pair of cheek-pieces of the Sintashta-Petrovka type, and a unique pair of bronze bits. Thus, the BMAC elite had horse-drawn chariots derived from the Sintashta culture by 1800 BCE."

    Attachment 43623
    His argument is quite flawed, why would would early Indo Iranians adopt bull carts from Catacomb/Steppe EBA like cultures , when they themselves imparted the advanced technology of spoked wheeled chariots to Catacomb and later Babino . Also horses were their token trademark in South Eurasia and they are completely absent here.
    Surely , Copper Hoard was inspired by other cultures via trade networks but it looks quite homegrown to me. He even alludes to it himself lol.


    It should be noted that the
    antennae-hilted swords differ from the swords of the Sintashta and related steppe cultures. They
    may have been inspired by West Asian swords, which were perhaps imported to the BMAC either
    from Syria and Anatolia or from Susa, as were many other cultural objects.
    Last edited by pegasus; 03-03-2021 at 11:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    His argument is quite flawed, why would would early Indo Iranians adopt bull carts from Catacomb/Steppe EBA like cultures , when they themselves imparted the advanced technology of spoked wheeled chariots to Catacomb and later Babino . Also horses were their token trademark in South Eurasia and they are completely absent here.
    Surely , Copper Hoard was inspired by other cultures via trade networks but it looks quite homegrown to me. He even alludes to it himself lol.


    It should be noted that the
    antennae-hilted swords differ from the swords of the Sintashta and related steppe cultures. They
    may have been inspired by West Asian swords, which were perhaps imported to the BMAC either
    from Syria and Anatolia or from Susa, as were many other cultural objects.
    With articles like these it i hard to take Parpola serious imo. Well to be honest it always has been for me even before this piece. The entire article is nothing but baseless speculation and it has as much academic value as my Anthrogenica posts have (that is to say they have NO academic value). I mean the idea that Srubnaya = Iranian and Andronovo = Indo-Aryan is quite silly on it's own, and it is not based on actual concrete archaeological evidence or linguistic evidence for that matter. Funnily enough we actually have a direct material and genetic link between various Andronovo and Postdronovo groups and the atested Iranian speakers which came afterwards, which is not something which can be said for Indo-Aryans as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    With articles like these it i hard to take Parpola serious imo. Well to be honest it always has been for me even before this piece. The entire article is nothing but baseless speculation and it has as much academic value as my Anthrogenica posts have (that is to say they have NO academic value). I mean the idea that Srubnaya = Iranian and Andronovo = Indo-Aryan is quite silly on it's own, and it is not based on actual concrete archaeological evidence or linguistic evidence for that matter. Funnily enough we actually have a direct material and genetic link between various Andronovo and Postdronovo groups and the atested Iranian speakers which came afterwards, which is not something which can be said for Indo-Aryans as a whole.
    His works are fun to read and interesting because they bring unusual ideas but yeah lot of almost baseless speculation like Indra coming from Finno-Ugrians and so. Ironically the only (distant) Y-DNA match to Indo-Aryans is from Ukr_MBA I6561 which could be Srubnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    His works are fun to read and interesting because they bring unusual ideas but yeah lot of almost baseless speculation like Indra coming from Finno-Ugrians and so. Ironically the only (distant) Y-DNA match to Indo-Aryans is from Ukr_MBA I6561 which could be Srubnaya.
    Proto-Uralics had a sky god called Ilma. It probably acquired some elements of Indra through contacts without there being a direct relation. The extent of similarities are deep for Ilma(rinen) but there's also a distinct link to the myth of Pygmalion as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    Proto-Uralics had a sky god called Ilma. It probably acquired some elements of Indra through contacts without there being a direct relation. The extent of similarities are deep for Ilma(rinen) but there's also a distinct link to the myth of Pygmalion as well.
    Considering that there are no Finno-Ugrian loanwords in Indo-Aryan or any other preserved Indo-Iranian language I find it unlikely that the central god of Indo-Aryans was adopted by Finno-Ugrians especially because his myth is a classical/super typical IE myth. Also Indra was worshipped by Nuristani too so Indra likely is older than the Indo-Aryan-Nuristani split and probably either Proto-Indo-Iranian or Late PII what likely means he is much older than Indo-Iranian and Finno-Ugrian contacts. It is for now even unclear if Indo-Aryans and Finno-Ugrians were ever in direct contact with each other. Some of the loanwords look rather Indo-Aryan than Iranic but these loanwords could be either from an extinct Indo-Aryan group not ancestral to Vedic/Mitanni Indo-Aryans or some extinct (Para)-Indo-Iranian group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    Proto-Uralics had a sky god called Ilma. It probably acquired some elements of Indra through contacts without there being a direct relation. The extent of similarities are deep for Ilma(rinen) but there's also a distinct link to the myth of Pygmalion as well.
    Proto Uralics were apparently N-L1026:

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/...ic-genome.html

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