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Thread: Will R1b-L51 be found in Catacombnaya of the NW Pontic steppe?

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    Question Will R1b-L51 be found in Catacombnaya of the NW Pontic steppe?

    Geneticist Anna Linderholm, in her recent paper, “Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from south-eastern Poland” (2020), draws a connection between the eight R1b burials of the Corded Ware culture (CWC) in Małopolska (also known as "Lesser Poland") in SE Poland in her report and the Catacombnaya culture (CC) of the Northwest Pontic (i.e., Black Sea) region. Polish archaeologist and CWC expert Piotr Włodarczak does the same thing in some of his recent papers.

    Those burials are rc dated to around 2500 BC (c. 2479-2349 BC), around the end of the period of an apparent migration of CC people into Małopolska. That is too late to matter for the ultimate origin of the CWC, but it is interesting relative to the possible genomics of the CC.

    So what really interests me in this connection is that five of the eight CWC individuals tested R1b-L51, and four of those tested R1b-L52 (one step downstream of L51). Of the remaining three, I'm guessing they were probably all at least R1b-L52, too, but Linderholm could only squeeze M269 out of two of them, and L23 out of the other.

    All eight were buried in Catacombnaya-style niche/catacomb graves, and all of them were eastern-shifted, with some sort of autosomal resemblance to the Afanasievo remains recently tested from Shatar Chuluu in Mongolia (Wang et al, 2020).

    So, given all of that, I'm thinking maybe Catacombnaya down the Prut/Dniester river valleys and along the Black Sea coast might yield up some R1b-L51.

    Here's a map from page 10 of Piotr Włodarczak, “The Traits of Early-Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska Groups) and Złota Culture Communities” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 19, 2014). I added the river names to help orient the reader. The map kind of shows what I mean. The red cross hatching shows CC burial sites. The blue cross hatching shows the extent of the Małopolska variant of the CWC. The pink shade is the extent of Yamnaya (YC), and the blue shade represents the CWC.

    Włodarczak's map with river names.jpg

    Things would certainly be easier if those CC burials marched all the way up into Małopolska, but maybe they do, if one counts the CWC burials in niche/catacomb graves.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by rms2; 03-01-2021 at 10:47 PM. Reason: Adding bold emphasis because some folks seem to be missing that point.

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    The Afanasievo guys from Mongolia with J1 and L51(?) were a bit more western than mainline Catacomb(or Afanasievo) in terms of EEF.

    Target: MNG_Afanasievo_1:I6221
    Distance: 1.8539% / 0.01853857
    84.0 RUS_Catacomb
    12.6 Corded_Ware_CZE
    3.4 KAZ_Botai

    Target: MNG_Afanasievo_1_contam:I6222
    Distance: 3.2298% / 0.03229757
    88.0 RUS_Catacomb
    9.4 Corded_Ware_CZE
    2.6 MNG_North_N

    The Malopolska guys are a little steppe-shifted but they also lived on the edge of the steppe. They are much more like normal CWC though.

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL:pcw040
    Distance: 2.6858% / 0.02685850
    70.2 Corded_Ware_CZE
    28.6 RUS_Catacomb
    1.2 RUS_Samara_HG

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    The following is from page 5 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna Linderholm

    The burials of CWC individuals in niche graves (16) do not correspond to the (hypothetical) oldest wave of the CWC phase with the assumed migration of pastoral communities from Eastern Europe (generally labelled the "A-horizon" or "Pan-European"). However, they are related to the second, separate phase (or "wave") of eastern influences, taking place around 2600-2500 BCE along the border zone between the forest and forest-steppe, and areas of Volhynia and Podolia towards Małopolska. The absolute dating of the burials analysed here correspond to the age of graves from other regions (including Central Germany or Polish lowland), from which burials have already been archaeogenomically studied. In this context, a certain genetic distinction of the Małopolska population from CWC individuals from other regions may be important. It is expressed by the repeatability of the Y-chromosomal R1b group in Małopolska materials, which has not been found in other regions of Central Europe but is present in the environment of Yamnaya and Catacombnaya steppe societies. The carried out comparative analyses indicated the closeness of the genetic pool of the Małopolska CWC and the Afanasievo culture. This challenging correlation, however correlates with archaeological conceptions assuming the eastern genesis of Catacombnaya culture, its significant influence on the formation of Middle Dnieper culture and then the expansion towards the west. Its consequence could be a modification of the gene pool, changed initially by the first migrations of the steppe communities towards the west.
    This one is from page 21 of the Supplementary Information:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna Linderholm

    In the perspective of archaeogenetic analyses, the chronological relation of CWC niche graves to the kurgan cultural complexes from the northern Pontic zone, and above all to the Catacomb culture, is important. The absolute dating presented above unambiguously indicates that the graveyards of the younger phase of the CWC are younger than the graves of the Yamnaya culture. However, they correspond to the graves of the older phase of the Catacomb culture in the north-west area of the Black Sea region. Significant seems to be also the chronological relation of examined materials to the cemeteries of Afanasievo culture from western Siberia.
    I'll probably post some quotes from Włodarczak, too, but those two from Linderholm are enough for one post.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-01-2021 at 06:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    . . .

    The Malopolska guys are a little steppe-shifted but they also lived on the edge of the steppe. They are much more like normal CWC though.

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL:pcw040
    Distance: 2.6858% / 0.02685850
    70.2 Corded_Ware_CZE
    28.6 RUS_Catacomb
    1.2 RUS_Samara_HG
    In ballpark terms, all pcw040 would require to get a RUS_Catacomb result like that would be one grandparent who was a Catacombnaya immigrant. He was R1b-L52, and his remains were recovered from one of the niche/catacomb graves in Święte in Małopolska.

    That grandparent might have been his paternal grandfather, so we might reasonably expect to find some R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya. It's guesswork, but it's not unjustified.

    If his other grandparents were CWC folks, that would explain the overall autosomal profile he had.

    Here's another thing, and someone can correct me if I am wrong. I believe the only Catacombnaya samples we have came not from the NW Black Sea coast but from over in the North Caucasus piedmont, so there are probably some differences between them and NW Pontic Catacombnaya. Pcw040 might bear even a stronger resemblance to Pontic Catacombnaya (but 28.6 is pretty substantial).
    Last edited by rms2; 03-01-2021 at 06:28 PM.

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    This is from page 9 of Piotr Włodarczak, “The Traits of Early-Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska Groups) and Złota Culture Communities” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 19, 2014):

    Quote Originally Posted by Piotr Włodarczak

    In the discussion below, all CWC materials from south-eastern Poland were considered together – as a group of finds standing out from adjacent regions and comparable to the model shared by the YC and CC.3
    From pages 22-23 of the same paper:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piotr Włodarczak

    The form of catacomb grave, typical of the younger CWC phases in Małopolska, bears much semblance to features from the North Pontic Area. This is particularly true for the general shape (a clear predominance of oval chambers), position of the entrance pit with respect to the niche (T-shaped layouts clearly dominate) and manner of use (most features hold single burials; only rarely are secondary intrusions into the grave chambers recorded). Similar structures are also characteristic of the CC [Kaiser 2003: 43-45; Ślusarska 2006: 68-71]. What else attracts attention is the analogous diversification of catacomb graves in Małopolska and the North Pontic Area, including, for instance, rectangular or oval entrance pits, presence or absence of an entrance corridor and various means of blocking the entrance to the catacomb.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-01-2021 at 09:04 PM.

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    The regional groups of the developed catacomb culture

    IMG_20210301_205402.jpg

    And here the chronological sequence of cultures in the northwestern Pontic-Caspian area

    IMG_20210301_205827.jpg

    The Catacomb culture and its regional groups show partly different developments only the early phase can be seen as the "overall horizon". In any case, we can determine the boundaries of the catacomb culture in the east and north at least east of the Dnepr regional expressions up to the Caucasus can be detected as well as their presence especially in the developed phase in the Ingul culture but also in the west up to the Prut. Like the Yamnaya culture, the catacomb culture is a large-scale phenomenon with regional characteristics that partly go back to long transition phases. For example, the late Yamnaya and early Catacomb cultures in the area of ​​different grave constructions and burial rites, which also ran parallel to one another
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    Most Catacomb has turned up R1b-Z2103 and I2 so far right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Most Catacomb has turned up R1b-Z2103 and I2 so far right?
    I've only seen one Catacombnaya Y-DNA result. As I recall, it was from the North Caucasus piedmont, and it was I2a (Allentoft, 2015).

    There is no indication the R1b CWC guys from Linderholm came from that area or that their ancestors did. Their supposed Catacombnaya connection is down the Prut/Dniester valleys to the northwest coast of the Black Sea.

    See the quotes from Włodarczak and Linderholm in the prior posts above.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-01-2021 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Most Catacomb has turned up R1b-Z2103 and I2 so far right?
    Yeah i also don't see much of a reason to believe western Catacomb is ancestral to Bell Beakers or some CWC groups. Western Catacomb rather seems to be ancestral to Babino (mainly R1b-Z2103 Proto-Greeks? + adstrate CWC R1a-M417/Z93) and Balkan IEs. I also don't think Bell Beaker-derived languages like Italo-Celtic are seen by linguists as closer to likely Catacomb-derived languages like Greek than to Balto-Slavic or even Indo-Iranian what again points to an origin of Bell Beakers in the core CWC zone and not outside of it in Yamnaya or Catacomb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Yeah i dont see much of a reason to believe western Catacomb is ancestral to Bell Beakers or some CWC groups. Western Catacomb rather seems to be ancestral to Babino (mainly R1b-Z2103 Proto-Greeks? + adstrate CWC R1a-M417/Z93) and Balkan IEs. I also don't think Bell Beaker-derived languages like Italo-Celtic are seen closer to likely Catacomb-derived languages like Greek than to Balto-Slavic or even Indo-Iranian what again points to a an origin of Bell Beakers in the core CWC zone and not outside of it in Yamnaya or Catacomb.
    Wikipedia says three Catacomb guys have turned up R1b-M269. I was going to post exactly what you did. I would also expect it to be R1b-Z2103 + I2 and maybe a small amount of R1a-Z93 especially in the later phases when it was on the path to being replaced by Timber Grave in some areas.

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