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Thread: How are Turks and Jews related?

  1. #1
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    How are Turks and Jews related?

    Target: Liquid_unscaled
    Distance: 1.0680% / 0.01067977 | R5P
    28.0 Georgian_Imer
    26.4 Azerbaijani_Turkey
    18.8 Spanish_Asturias
    18.2 Karaite_Egypt
    8.6 Nivkh

    Target: Liquid_unscaled
    Distance: 1.0692% / 0.01069244 | R5P
    32.2 Sephardic_Jew
    30.6 Georgian_Imer
    18.8 Azerbaijani_Turkey
    10.2 Polish_Kashubian
    8.2 Nivkh

    Target: Liquid_unscaled
    Distance: 1.1268% / 0.01126783 | R5P
    29.4 Azerbaijani_Turkey
    29.0 Ossetian
    19.4 Italian_Lombardy
    14.6 Tunisian_Jew
    7.6 Nivkh

    Target: Liquid_unscaled
    Distance: 1.1749% / 0.01174920 | R5P
    47.6 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    37.4 Georgian_Imer
    8.4 Nivkh
    4.2 Mari
    2.4 Mlabri

    Target: Liquid_unscaled
    Distance: 1.1812% / 0.01181158 | R5P
    33.4 Georgian_Imer
    30.4 Italian_Liguria
    22.4 Iraqi_Jew
    8.2 Nivkh
    5.6 Mari

    This is me deleting each Jewish coordinate each time and reloading, only to find another Jewish population in the new match. What is peculiar to me is that these Jewish groups are native to different parts of the world but they still reappear!
    Distance: 1.4145%
    37.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    32.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    18.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.6 CHN_Boshan_N

    97.6% Anatolian, 1.3% Central Asian, 0.7% Sudanese, 0.4% Trace (23&me)

  2. #2
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    Its not that you specificaly or Turks are related to Jews the calculator is just using them as a proxy for the Levantine part of your genome and maybe southern European. Running modern samples as a mix of other modern samples is a pointles exercise other than for people who are of recent mixed ancestry.
    Last edited by vasil; 06-26-2021 at 02:09 PM.

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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    Its not that you specificaly or Turks are related to Jews the calculator is just using them as a proxy for the Levantine part of your genome and maybe southern European. Running modern samples as a mix of other modern samples is a pointles exercise other than for people who are of recent mixed ancestry.
    This is almost what I'm trying to find out, whether we were Turkified recently, if so, who were we before Turkification.
    Distance: 1.4145%
    37.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    32.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    18.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.6 CHN_Boshan_N

    97.6% Anatolian, 1.3% Central Asian, 0.7% Sudanese, 0.4% Trace (23&me)

  5. #4
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    M30g , Z7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
    This is almost what I'm trying to find out, whether we were Turkified recently, if so, who were we before Turkification.
    Anatolian Turks are native Anatolian Greeks (sometimes other minorities depending on region) for the most part + significant Turkmen ancestry. They were "Turkified" in the pontic/eastern black sea areas where they score very little if any Turkmen ancestry, but most other regions have Turkmen admixture. Balkan Turks are native balkanites (usually Greek or Bulgarian) + Turkmen. These are generalizations based on averages of course, but you get the gist. Here are the approximate Turkmen-percentages by regions inhabited by Turks, compiled by the Turkish DNA project.

    Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews pop up in your models because of the West Asian + southern euro-like ancestry in most Turks. However, most Turkish people aren't of Jewish ancestry.

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  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Anatolian Turks are native Anatolian Greeks (sometimes other minorities depending on region) for the most part + significant Turkmen ancestry. They were "Turkified" in the pontic/eastern black sea areas where they score very little if any Turkmen ancestry, but most other regions have Turkmen admixture. Balkan Turks are native balkanites (usually Greek or Bulgarian) + Turkmen. These are generalizations based on averages of course, but you get the gist. Here are the approximate Turkmen-percentages by regions inhabited by Turks, compiled by the Turkish DNA project.

    Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews pop up in your models because of the West Asian + southern euro-like ancestry in most Turks. However, most Turkish people aren't of Jewish ancestry.
    Great explanation. I would also like to mention that the native Anatolian Greek ancestors of most modern Anatolian Turks weren't Greeks as in literally from Greece, but rather Greek-speaking Byzantines/Romans. This is actually also true for those from Greece itself; despite being called 'Greek', they owe more of their ancestry to the Byzantines than to the ancient Greeks who lived thousands of years ago, which makes perfect sense; this is like saying you owe more of your ancestry to your father (~50% shared) than to your grandfather (~25%). The Byzantines themselves were also the result of locals (Myceneans in Greece and Anatolians in Turkey) mixing in with newcomers.

    As for the part with the Turkmen admixture, I would like to mention that Kulin most likely isn't talking about the people we call Turkmens today. Modern Turkmens are genetically different (more West-Eurasian) than the original Turks who entered Anatolia, so you shouldn't use them when modeling modern Anatolian Turks.

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  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    Great explanation. I would also like to mention that the native Anatolian Greek ancestors of most modern Anatolian Turks weren't Greeks as in literally from Greece, but rather Greek-speaking Byzantines/Romans.
    I like to think of them as Hellenized Anatolians who were Latinised Anatolians who were Persianised Anatolians etc etc. You get the idea.

    The Ashkenazi Jews look interesting, perhaps they have their origins in Anatolia e.g Anatolia -> Holy Land -> Exodus -----> Germany. But why do they not have any CHG and why did they move that far away, until they reached possible hostile Germanic tribe territory? Because they were areligious and just let them be?

    Clipboard01.jpgClipboard01.jpg

    Edit, a study based on Y-Chromosomal DNA appears to have shown a link with the North of the Fertile Crescent.

    "A 2001 study by Nebel et al. showed that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations share the same overall paternal Near Eastern ancestries. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent."
    Distance: 1.4145%
    37.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    32.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    18.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.6 CHN_Boshan_N

    97.6% Anatolian, 1.3% Central Asian, 0.7% Sudanese, 0.4% Trace (23&me)

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  11. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    Great explanation. I would also like to mention that the native Anatolian Greek ancestors of most modern Anatolian Turks weren't Greeks as in literally from Greece, but rather Greek-speaking Byzantines/Romans. This is actually also true for those from Greece itself; despite being called 'Greek', they owe more of their ancestry to the Byzantines than to the ancient Greeks who lived thousands of years ago, which makes perfect sense; this is like saying you owe more of your ancestry to your father (~50% shared) than to your grandfather (~25%). The Byzantines themselves were also the result of locals (Myceneans in Greece and Anatolians in Turkey) mixing in with newcomers.

    As for the part with the Turkmen admixture, I would like to mention that Kulin most likely isn't talking about the people we call Turkmens today. Modern Turkmens are genetically different (more West-Eurasian) than the original Turks who entered Anatolia, so you shouldn't use them when modeling modern Anatolian Turks.
    Are you trying to say that modern Greeks, and by extension Turks, owe a substantial amount of their ancestry to people who lived in what is now Italy? Because that is what I'm interpreting from this comment. Correct me if I'm wrong. My impression was that the Byzantine empire was just an extension of the earlier Roman empire and did not affect the genetics of the regions it encompassed and that the pre-Turkic ancestry of modern Anatolian Turks was a mixture of native Anatolian(read near eastern-like)+ancient Greeks settled on the Greek colonies on Asia minor while modern European(not Anatolian/Pontic) Greeks were mostly the remnants of ancient Greeks+Slavic admixture.
    Last edited by Cynic; 07-01-2021 at 08:45 AM.

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Are you trying to say that modern Greeks, and by extension Turks, owe a substantial amount of their ancestry to people who lived in what is now Italy? Because that is what I'm interpreting from this comment. Correct me if I'm wrong. My impression was that the Byzantine empire was just an extension of the earlier Roman empire and did not affect the genetics of the regions it encompassed and that the pre-Turkic ancestry of modern Anatolian Turks was a mixture of native Anatolian(read near eastern-like)+ancient Greeks settled on the Greek colonies on Asia minor while modern European(not Anatolian/Pontic) Greeks were mostly the remnants of ancient Greeks+Slavic admixture.
    The pre-Turkic Central Anatolians owe most of their ancestry to Bronze Age Anatolians, with some other groups sprinkled in (Pontics are pretty different though), though we do not know what the source of the Steppe ancestry was. It might have been the Ancient Greeks, or Phrygians or something else entirely. I would argue that BA Anatolians weren't necessarily Near Eastern-like, but exactly match their geographic region, that is being between Greece and other more eastern countries.

    As for modern Greeks, most Greek users I have seen say Greeks, especially Aegean Islanders, have very high levels of BA Anatolian ancestry, possibly even more than Ancient Greek itself, while mainlanders should also have ancient Balkan ancestry that would have been similar to Ancient Greek.

    Also remember that ironically enough, the Roman samples we have, on average, are much more similar to Aegean Islanders and Cretans, but also Anatolian Greeks (with the exception of Pontics), than to many Italians from northern regions.
    Last edited by bovefex; 07-01-2021 at 11:07 AM.

  14. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    The pre-Turkic Central Anatolians owe most of their ancestry to Bronze Age Anatolians, with some other groups sprinkled in (Pontics are pretty different though), though we do not know what the source of the Steppe ancestry was. It might have been the Ancient Greeks, or Phrygians or something else entirely. I would argue that BA Anatolians weren't necessarily Near Eastern-like, but exactly match their geographic region, that is being between Greece and other more eastern countries.

    As for modern Greeks, most Greek users I have seen say Greeks, especially Aegean Islanders, have very high levels of BA Anatolian ancestry, possibly even more than Ancient Greek itself, while mainlanders should also have ancient Balkan ancestry that would have been similar to Ancient Greek.

    Also remember that ironically enough, the Roman samples we have, on average, are much more similar to Aegean Islanders and Cretans, but also Anatolian Greeks (with the exception of Pontics), than to many Italians from northern regions.
    Clarify what you meant by “newcomers” to Greece and Anatolia who mixed with locals to become Byzantines.

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Clarify what you meant by “newcomers” to Greece and Anatolia who mixed with locals to become Byzantines.
    I do not possess enough information on this to be able to give you an exact answer. I just meant that the Byzantines of Greece weren't the solely descended from Ancient Greeks and the Byzantines of Anatolia weren't solely descended from Ancient Anatolians. Migrations from the east seem likely, but migrations from the north and the west too (especially the Steppe of Anatolians, since they didn't seem to have that in the Bronze Age).

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