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Thread: Early Tocharian split without European farmer admixture

  1. #91
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    id:I4315 UZB [UZ-SU] age new - Surxondaryo - Uzbekistan
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

    UZ-JAR-004 (I4315): Date of 1609-1465 cal BCE (3255 15 BP, PSUAMS-2518). Genetically male. BMAC Dzharkutan Uzbekistan R1b1
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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    id:I4315 UZB [UZ-SU] age new - Surxondaryo - Uzbekistan
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

    UZ-JAR-004 (I4315): Date of 1609-1465 cal BCE (3255 15 BP, PSUAMS-2518). Genetically male. BMAC Dzharkutan Uzbekistan R1b1
    Supplementary Online Materials
    The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia
    This sample splits clade PH155, I don't know why are they still holding it at R1b level.

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    Several Turkish individuals from the new study also have joined the R-PH155 branch.
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    I found this snippet in regards to the Shirenzigou site:

     


    pretty grimy stuff in regards to the human sacrifice.

    In this article they identify this "new tribe" with the Xiongnu, which I disagree with for a couple of reasons.

    One is the timeline. The Xiongnu rose to power after 200 bc, while these show up in the third century b.c. Chinese historical records actually mention the migration of some Yuezhi groups to this region after their defeat to the Xiongnu around 176 b.c. They even alluded to a shared burial tradition with the Qiang peoples, which they attributed to assimilation during the Xiongnu empire. Guess who were the direct neighbours of the Qiang during the iron age. Alexander's Kovalev's articles make it clear that the material traditions of the Xiongnu in the third century b.c are different from those found at Ordos and further west.

    To me it seems far more likely that these new nomadic tribes were the Yuezhi, and later the Xiao Yuezhi. Zadneprovsky has mentioned the podboy burials that show up in Central Asia that can be linked to those found in Gansu, with the Shajing culture which has material links to the nomadic cultures of the Altai-Sayan region.
     


    The archaeological trail of the Yuezhi and Wusun are very poorly attested, but I think those Scytho-Siberian derived semi-nomadic/nomadic cultures in Gansu during the bronze age (common iron age) are very good candidates to explain the bulk of ancestry seen in the Shirenzigou samples, as well as their materials and even the shared traditions with the Qiang. This also happens to be close to where the Yuezhi and Wusun were initially placed, and matches later records of Xiao Yuezhi settling in the region where the Shirenzigou site is situated.

    What is clear though is that they absolutely were not Tocharian speaking.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 07-20-2021 at 02:35 PM.

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    Any connections between Tocharians and tribes inhabiting the regions east of them are tentative.

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  11. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sklvn View Post
    Any connections between Tocharians and tribes inhabiting the regions east of them are tentative.
    Its one of those things that looks sensible when looking at a map of linguistic distributions, but when you take things like geography, travel routes and subsistence economy in mind it becomes a less probably scenario.

    If it wasn't for the fact that the Tocharian language was named after the Tokhars, I dont even think we would've seen all those awkward explanations as to how and why the Yuezhi and Wusun were Tocharian speaking. Its a bit similar to Khotanese and Tumshuqese 'Saka', another example of a language spoken by medieval urbanites attributed to mysterious iron age nomads.

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    Does anyone know what the "Hun Tian Shan" samples from Iron Age and Late Antiquity Kyrgyzstan are likely to be? The supplement is vague. I know it's the Xiongnu era in that region but I suppose these samples could just be Wusun or the like.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Does anyone know what the "Hun Tian Shan" samples from Iron Age and Late Antiquity Kyrgyzstan are likely to be? The supplement is vague. I know it's the Xiongnu era in that region but I suppose these samples could just be Wusun or the like.
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  16. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Does anyone know what the "Hun Tian Shan" samples from Iron Age and Late Antiquity Kyrgyzstan are likely to be? The supplement is vague. I know it's the Xiongnu era in that region but I suppose these samples could just be Wusun or the like.
    These samples range from the 1st to the 7th century, which basically means they can be anything. Some of these samples arguably predate the Hunnic presence in this region.

    You have a bunch of "Iranian Huns" as they are sometimes referred to, who migrated southwards from those regions such as xionites, kidarites, hephthalites etc. There is little historical information about them, and a lot of information comes by way of minted coins and some historical mentions by their foes. All shortlived, and unlikely to have been cohesive ethnic groups. You also had migrations of peoples such as the Yueban, who probably were Turkic speaking given that they are recorded as having spoken the same language as the Gaoche.

    The Wusun began losing political power in the 2nd century AD but were around in some form until the 5th century AD when they were defeated by the Xianbei (not sure) with some possibly moving to the Pamirs and others just absorbed into the newly growing groups.

    With the Wusun you also have an issue in that archaeologists are quite adamant about a fairly decent continuity of the earlier saka traditions and populations, so its not like all these peoples migrated away. Some of the Wusun samples may not even have been descendants of the nomads that came from western China.

    From a genetic perspective, the samples look like a mishmash of sedentary/agropastoral Iranian, late nomadic steppe Iranian and nomadic Turkic ancestries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Does anyone know what the "Hun Tian Shan" samples from Iron Age and Late Antiquity Kyrgyzstan are likely to be? The supplement is vague. I know it's the Xiongnu era in that region but I suppose these samples could just be Wusun or the like.
    Hun_Tian_Shan are either Yueban or Xionites. They are genetically a bit more East Eurasian than the preceding Saka_Tian_Shan and labeled as Turkic-speaking in the supp table. However, they seem to be descended mostly from the preceding nomadic population of the region.
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