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Thread: Why are Lebanese Muslims genetically more European than Lebanese Christians?

  1. #11
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    Lebanese Muslims have more steppe ancestry compared to Lebanese Christians who are more genetically isolated. This steppe could have come from mixing with Persians, Turks, or other groups nearby.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    There was large amounts of European slaves especially via Crimea and later the Barbary slave trade.Many of those Turks were slaves themselves although the men were mostly military slaves.

    Ofcourse not all Euro admixture is slavery mediated just like all the West African/Sahelian or Bantu admixture isn't just slavery mediated.Till today there are descendants of West African pilgrims in the Hijaz and Jerusalem
    Yes but Yamnaya is more common than SSA, because this component is more common and with a good amount, among some Natives of West Asia area, like the Turkish, Caucasians and Persians people
    Last edited by Aben Aboo; 05-05-2021 at 04:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander87 View Post
    I don't think it's as simple as Lebanese muslims mixed with Turkish muslims. After all how did Lebanese Christians get steppe admixture as well? It could have been through the same Greco/Anatolian source.
    Yes it is one source among many others and because Lebanese Christians are more isolated on genetical point of view, so I think that explains they have less Steppe than Muslims.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander87 View Post
    I don't think it's as simple as Lebanese muslims mixed with Turkish muslims. After all how did Lebanese Christians get steppe admixture as well? It could have been through the same Greco/Anatolian source.
    There may be layers of steppe ancestry, one arrived with the Greeks prior to Islam and a later one with Anatolian Turks that ended up in the Muslims. So the Muslims have both layers of steppe and the Christians have one which explains why the Muslims have greater steppe.

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    I would suggest reading this paper as it is quite informative to the question raised by the original post:https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...02929720301555
    Now much of what this paper implies can be demonstrated using G25 coordinates and vahaduo. I want to focus in on one of the points made in the paper. It suggests the last admixing event in Lebanon happened during the Ottoman period and that it introduced further Turkish and Caucasian ancestry into the area. It tried to model modern Lebanese with Lebanese samples from the middle ages and samples of modern Caucasian/Turkish populations. This would be found in figure S12 I believe. I have been able to successfully replicate all of their models with G25 and Vahaduo but this last model of theirs is doubtful for the following reasons:1)Modern Caucasian such as Armenians or Turkish populations would already have Anatolian admixture and might produce results with decent fits but only because you have an overlap of Anatolian and Caucasian that was already found in Lebanese 2) the study in no way discusses what religious populations it used for the modern Lebanese and if they averaged out Lebanese admixture using samples from all religious backgrounds it would not in fact respect the historical genetic differences between these groups as some were most definitely more isolated/"picky" in who they would admix with. This is would cause problems with the results. 3) similar results and even better results can be made using Cypriot/Aegean islander populations or Greco-Anatolian populations. But this differs from religious group to religious group
    I'd like to show you what I came up with using Lebanese_MA and other populations. I went ahead and used other populations from a similar time rather than using modern populations.
    Here are the distances and percentages of modern Lebanese using Lebanon_MA and various populations(I included my dad just for fun)
    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.03405014 89.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 10.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.02638848 89.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 10.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
    0.02361289 90.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 9.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

    Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
    0.02155512 93.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 6.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.01937967 97.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 2.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.01828678 97.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 2.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
    0.02025725 97.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 2.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

    Distance to: Dad_scaled
    0.03051328 96.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 3.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman


    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.03771747 83.20% Levant_LBN_MA + 16.80% RUS_Alan_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.02760301 80.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 20.00% RUS_Alan_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
    0.02253422 81.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 19.00% RUS_Alan_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
    0.01580391 83.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 16.60% RUS_Alan_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.01657890 90.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 9.40% RUS_Alan_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.01604525 91.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 8.20% RUS_Alan_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
    0.01928881 92.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 7.20% RUS_Alan_MA

    Distance to: Dad_scaled
    0.02626424 86.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 13.60% RUS_Alan_MA


    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.04304965 89.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 10.20% Greco_Romani

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.03644835 82.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 17.40% Greco_Romani

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
    0.02986493 74.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 25.40% Greco_Romani

    Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
    0.02195459 73.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 26.40% Greco_Romani

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.01649155 78.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 21.20% Greco_Romani

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.01561370 80.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 19.40% Greco_Romani

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
    0.01772235 79.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 21.00% Greco_Romani

    Distance to: Dad_scaled
    0.02695162 71.20% Levant_LBN_MA + 28.80% Greco_Romani



    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.04231258 87.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 12.20% Byzantium_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.03528097 83.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 16.60% Byzantium_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
    0.02804456 78.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 22.00% Byzantium_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
    0.02095446 79.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 20.20% Byzantium_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.01650867 85.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 15.00% Byzantium_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.01594836 86.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 13.20% Byzantium_MA

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
    0.01787563 85.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 14.60% Byzantium_MA

    Distance to: Dad_scaled
    0.02710190 80.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 20.00% Byzantium_MA

    So first thing to notice is that the results are somewhat generally similar but you'll notice different percentages for each modern population as well as distances. Here you already see a difference for what non-Christian groups prefer vs what Christian groups prefer. This is just to display that we can model modern Lebanese with Greco-Anatolain just as good as with Turkish/ Caucasian. Next lets look at deep ancestry of all the modern groups along with Lebanon_MA. This will help us understand what we are looking at better, kind of giving us a view of the forest rather than being lost in the trees. I'll use Onur's latest deep ancestry calculator
    Attachment 44668
    So the thing to notice is that while Muslims have more steppe admixture than Christians they also have less Anatolian than Christians as well. In fact the have less Anatolian then the Medieval average which seems to indicate that the Anatolian input in Muslims degraded more recently. It also seems to indicate a more eastern source for the Muslim steppe. That's because while all Lebanese averages have more steppe than the Medieval average only the Muslims have less Anatolian. Less Anatolian would be found in eastern populations even north eastern populations maybe around the Caucasus. However no real increase in CHG in Muslims so maybe not Caucasus. If any increase in CHG it might be in Christians but I will get to that. So big picture: Muslims more steppe less Anatolian(on average) Christians less steppe more Anatolian(on average). So next I will try and model modern Lebanese populations with Lebanon_MA and other populations from the Middle ages. I will use RUS_Alan_MA for Caucasus, Ghaznavid_MA which would be for Central Asia(they were Mamluk/Persian), Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman for Eastern Anatolian which should compliment the Ghaznavid well, Dinka for African admixture but its not a Middle age population but will do just fine(don't now enough about Africa in the Middle Ages), and finally GREECE_BYZANTINE_MEDIEVAL for Western Anatolian/Aegean. It's actually just Greek Izmir but it will do as a proxy for that part of the world. Honestly we lack Greek samples from this time period. Anyways this is what i get
    Screenshot 2021-05-12 213439.png
    As you can see the Muslim averages have higher proportions of the Ghaznavid_MA, Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman, and Dinka, while generally they have lower proportions of the Byzantine. This would corroborate what we saw with the deep ancestry, that Muslims are more Eastern shifted than their Christian counter parts as well as having more African admixture. So it would seem that in fact the Muslim population in Lebanon received there steppe input from an eastern source while Christians received it from a more western source. Remember we're talking about averages. Also keep in mind none of this is exact. It just shows the big picture. I can try and model modern Lebanese with Lebanon_MA and a modern population like the paper did but it muddies the water. But for Christians i don't think their steppe input came from Armenians for 2 reasons 1) Armenians on average carry low steppe admixture anyways and it's hard to see them being the sole reason why the steppe input increased in frequency and proportions in Christians. Though they might be the reason in the increase of Caucasian input 2) Historically, while there have been Armenians living in Lebanon for a long time their presence was minimal. The great influx of Armenians to the area came during the Armenian genocide around a 100 years ago. Many of them left during the civil war in Lebanon. But i do think they had localized impacts on the Lebanese populations. I think another source of steppe input and in fact some more Anatolian input in Christians would be either Greek Islanders including the Cypriots(I asked a Cypriot on this forum about Cypriot interaction with Lebanon and he told me that Cypriots have historically traded with the Lebanese and have settled in the coastal areas) or, maybe even and, Greco-Anatolians. These would be Christian populations who would have Anatolian/Caucasian/Iranic admixture as well as moderate steppe input. Cypriots and Greco-Anatolians would no doubt carry diluted Greek admixture. For Muslims all i could say is the source for any further admixture during the Ottoman period would be Muslim populations east of the Levant. I just want to repeat I'm talking about averages. Of course there could be Western shifted Muslims in Lebanon who hypothetically mixed with Greek Muslims who have actually settled in the area and vice versa for Christians. Anyways to answer the OP, Muslims are not genetically more European than Christians, the opposite is true. Steppe does not=European.

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    Screenshot 2021-05-12 004748.png
    this was the results using Onur's deep ancestry calculator

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  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander87 View Post
    Here are the distances and percentages of modern Lebanese using Lebanon_MA and various populations(I included my dad just for fun)
    Are you using the averages on G25? Those averages are skewed as they have a handful of outliers that will shift the average. I'm interested to see the same models but with better averages.

  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupriac View Post
    Are you using the averages on G25? Those averages are skewed as they have a handful of outliers that will shift the average. I'm interested to see the same models but with better averages.
    The main differentiating factor between Muslim and non-Muslim religious minorities from the same countries in the Middle East appears to be relatively minor but noticeable gene flow into the local Muslim population that dates to the last 1000+ years absent in the endogamous religious minority groups.

    The trace Sub-Saharan African admixture is probably the most obvious. In addition, it looks like some of the samples labeled Lebanese_Muslim and Lebanese from the HO dataset are shifted, albeit towards Turks, when plotting with smartpca.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the additional 'Steppe/European' like component in Lebanon were brought by Ottoman rule along with some East Asian ancestry possibly.

     



     
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