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Thread: Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267

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    Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267

    Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
    Sahakyan, H., Margaryan, A., Saag, L. et al. Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267. Sci Rep 11, 6659 (2021).
    nature scientific reports
    https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2

    Abstract
    Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 is a common male lineage in West Asia. One high-frequency region—encompassing the Arabian Peninsula, southern Mesopotamia, and the southern Levant—resides ~ 2000 km away from the other one found in the Caucasus. The region between them, although has a lower frequency, nevertheless demonstrates high genetic diversity. Studies associate this haplogroup with the spread of farming from the Fertile Crescent to Europe, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the desert regions of the Arabian Peninsula, the history of the Jews, and the spread of Islam. Here, we study past human male demography in West Asia with 172 high-coverage whole Y chromosome sequences and 889 genotyped samples of haplogroup J1-M267. We show that this haplogroup evolved ~ 20,000 years ago somewhere in northwestern Iran, the Caucasus, the Armenian Highland, and northern Mesopotamia. The major branch—J1a1a1-P58—evolved during the early Holocene ~ 9500 years ago somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and southern Mesopotamia. Haplogroup J1-M267 expanded during the Chalcolithic, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age. Most probably, the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the arid zones, or both of these events together explain the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 we see today in the southern regions of West Asia.
    They avoided or did not want to include our J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 for a scientific or political agenda. I wonder how in 2021 with high coverage methods they want to investigate a big haplogroup cancelling important phylogenetic branches in some of the most important frontiers of the Mesolithic/Bronze Age in Western Asia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
    Sahakyan, H., Margaryan, A., Saag, L. et al. Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267. Sci Rep 11, 6659 (2021).
    nature scientific reports
    https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2



    They avoided or did not want to include our J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 for a scientific or political agenda. I wonder how in 2021 with high coverage methods they want to investigate a big haplogroup cancelling important phylogenetic branches in some of the most important frontiers of the Mesolithic/Bronze Age in Western Asia.
    What possible political agenda?
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    Maybe they didn't have any high-coverage whole Y chromosome sequences for those branches.

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    If you are a good scientist you must collect all relevant data related to a phenomenon you want to investigate, specially if you want to publish in a good scientific journal. They pretended not to see our clades, a simple look at ISOGG, YFull or FTDNA will show that. The political agenda is why they erased our branches and what they can represent in contrast to other J1 branches ? I asked the authors ? When I read the title I thought I would finally read a good comprehensive article about our haplogroup but as they say in London: Mind the gap !
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    If you are a good scientist you must collect all relevant data related to a phenomenon you want to investigate, specially if you want to publish in a good scientific journal. They pretended not to see our clades, a simple look at ISOGG, YFull or FTDNA will show that. The political agenda is why they erased our branches and what they can represent in contrast to other J1 branches ? I asked the authors ? When I read the title I thought I would finally read a good comprehensive article about our haplogroup but as they say in London: Mind the gap !
    They made other mistakes in the paper that could lead me to cry antisemitism if I were paranoid. Most of the time, it's indifference, not conspiracy.

    I'm sorry that they ignored your clade; would've been great for them to account for it. But why is it a foregone conclusion that they have a political agenda? What possible political agenda could be at play?
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    Or, say, if I were a Muslim Arab, I could be paranoid about the following, especially in light of the evidence that there are very large branches under J-FGC11 and J-YSC76 that clearly correspond to the Islamic conquests/Arab migrations of the early medieval period:

    "Studies explain the current distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 to be a result of the Arab conquests connected to the diffusion of Islam. If this scenario would have been true in West Asia, then the phylogeny of haplogroup J1-M267 should have contained multiple coalescences between representatives of different Arab populations within the time, when the diffusion of Islam occurred, that is, in the last ~ 1.3 ky. In reality, such coalescences occur mostly within the period of ~ 2 to ~ 5 kya (Supplementary File S1). Moreover, we don’t find a substantial increase of Ne after ~ 1.3 kya. These observations contradict the connection between the spread of this haplogroup and the spread of Islam in West Asia and Egypt, consistent with previous study."

    In fact, for the meteorically successful J-L859 branch, which almost certain corresponds to the Quraysh clan, they only note a single Malay member, and don't write a word about it. I'm not an Arab or a Muslim, but I imagine I could find reasons to be frustrated and suspicious if I were!
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 03-23-2021 at 02:15 PM.
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    Not too sure about Northern Iran as the homeland of M267, it isn't in any way unlikely (far from it), that being said there is mounting evidence that it might have been further west around the southern slopes of the Caucasus (which would fit better with the earliest cases we know of, namely Satsurblia and the Karelian HGs) and the amazing thing reading the supplementary note is that they're aware of it. A long-held assumption is that it had something to do with the Zarzian culture, so the Zagros is another possibility, I think the Late Pleistocene Gulf refugium might be worthy of consideration as well, but the truth is that with so few Paleolithic samples from West Asia this is pure speculation, so to stay on the safe side an origin around present-day Georgia seems most likely for the time being.

    Likewise, Northern Arabia as P58's homeland isn't convincing, I think we can be pretty certain it arose in Mesopotamia. Speaking of ancient samples, they missed a huge opportunity to detail the numerous correspondences between P58's phylogeny and the Semitic language tree and evaluate those correspondences by looking at the dozens of ancient P58 individuals from early Semitic-speaking populations. We're no longer dealing with conjecture based on modern-day distribution, we have ancient data to verify the correlation now, but instead the authors are unnecessarily vague, choosing to focus on "the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages" as if P58 had a major role in early AA dispersals, which is even less likely than P58 arising in Northern Arabia.

    RCO, I think the exclusion of your branch has more to do with its absence in the ancient dataset than with any political agenda, to be sure though this is a bone-headed approach as it could be an example of a branch that made it early to Central Asia, and this is one of the things which might push M267's homeland further east on the Iranian plateau.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-23-2021 at 02:33 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    I am more interested in the phylogenetic structure of the haplogroup because basal branches are extremely important and can provide valuable insight into its region and population of origin.
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    In Table S3 they list I3965 from BA Hazor as B2070 (which I assume is Z27681) and R835 from Civitanova Marche as "B877" (Y3081?) but I10268 and I4517 as "PF4881" even though we know they're both Y3081. IMO with enough resolution we'd find out that most of the samples from Megiddo were Y3081 anyway, in-keeping with the predominance of a single branch at other sites. Still, this is strange... But not as strange as this:

    "The spread of Islam did not substantially affect the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 in West Asia."

    A simple look at the branches found in the ancient samples from the Levant would invalidate this assertion.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-23-2021 at 03:09 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
    Sahakyan, H., Margaryan, A., Saag, L. et al. Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267. Sci Rep 11, 6659 (2021).
    nature scientific reports
    https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2



    They avoided or did not want to include our J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 for a scientific or political agenda. I wonder how in 2021 with high coverage methods they want to investigate a big haplogroup cancelling important phylogenetic branches in some of the most important frontiers of the Mesolithic/Bronze Age in Western Asia.
    thanks you

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