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Thread: Societal Structure of Ion Age Estonians

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Between Curonians and Livonians there is mentioned Noroma, which apparently etymologically means Low land from some Finnic language. In other chronicle there is even a text: «Нерома (норома) сиречь жемоить». (Neroma meaning Zhemaytians)..
    Where did you get that "lowland"? Meryans are usually connected to ethonymes looking like mer- or ner-, but despite different suggestions the meaning of the ethonym is unknown, as far as I know.

    P.S. related:

    "On the basis his consideration of the written sources of the 12th– 15th centuries and toponymy, Mačinskij has shown that the basin of the Velikaja River, the Eastern regions of Lake Čudskoe, the upper reaches of the Luga River and south-east of Lake Il’men’ were all occupied by the people of Nereva ~ Norova ~ Mereva."

    https://blogs.helsinki.fi/slavica-he...7-Jushkova.pdf
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 04-11-2021 at 12:14 PM.

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  3. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Where did you get that "lowland"? Meryans are usually connected to ethonymes looking like mer- or ner-, but despite different suggestions the meaning of the ethonym is unknown, as far as I know.

    P.S. related:

    "On the basis his consideration of the written sources of the 12th– 15th centuries and toponymy, Mačinskij has shown that the basin of the Velikaja River, the Eastern regions of Lake Čudskoe, the upper reaches of the Luga River and south-east of Lake Il’men’ were all occupied by the people of Nereva ~ Norova ~ Mereva."

    https://blogs.helsinki.fi/slavica-he...7-Jushkova.pdf
    Unfortunately I can’t find the source, only quoted. Apparently it was some Popov who wrote this. In Wikipedia:
    “ В фино-угорской языковой группе «маа» — земля и «норо» — низменность, болотисто-водянистая низкая местность.” (Finno-Ugric language group - maa - land and noro- lowland, low wet land that is covered by bogs).

    So, the arguments go:
    a) mention of Noroma in the list with Curonians and Livonians
    b) mention of Neroma = Zhemaitija in other Russian chronicle
    c) Noroma = lowland
    + indirectly and somewhat circular
    d) Sälli- Augstaitians parallel

  4. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Unfortunately I can’t find the source, only quoted. Apparently it was some Popov who wrote this. In Wikipedia:
    “ В фино-угорской языковой группе «маа» — земля и «норо» — низменность, болотисто-водянистая низкая местность.” (Finno-Ugric language group - maa - land and noro- lowland, low wet land that is covered by bogs).

    So, the arguments go:
    a) mention of Noroma in the list with Curonians and Livonians
    b) mention of Neroma = Zhemaitija in other Russian chronicle
    c) Noroma = lowland
    + indirectly and somewhat circular
    d) Sälli- Augstaitians parallel
    Noro, nora is indeed in (dialectal) Finnish a wet depression, however at least Samic dictionary Algu seems to suggest Germanic origin < *no(o)ra. So, I'm not sure how would it work. Also, a wet hollow does not equal lowland, now that we want to be precise and nero is not even noro. That being said, it has been suggested that Nero, the name of the lake next to Rostov, is based on Meryanic Inero "big (lake"). So, fex lake Plateliai, being a big lake, might have a relation to (I)neroma, but ine "big" is not a Finnic word.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 04-12-2021 at 07:47 AM.

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  6. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Noro, nora is indeed in (dialectal) Finnish a wet depression, however at least Samic dictionary Algu seems to suggest Germanic origin < *no(o)ra. So, I'm not sure how would it work. Also, a wet hollow does not equal lowland, now that we want to be precise and nero is not even noro. That being said, it has been suggested that Nero, the name of the lake next to Rostov, is based on Meryanic Inero "big (lake"). So, fex lake Plateliai, being a big lake, might have a relation to (I)neroma, but ine "big" is not a Finnic word.
    Basically original texts from Chronicles are following:
    «Се суть инии языци иже дань дают Руси: чюдь, меря, весь, мурома, черемись, моръдва, пермь, печера, ямь, литва, зимигола, корсь, норома, либь»” ".., Lithuania, Semigalia, Curonia, Noroma, Livonians" (Primary Chronicle)

    And
    «Нерома сиречь жемоить». (Not sure which Chronicle, could not find exact reference - "Neroma meaning Zhemaytians").

    If Noro is indeed Germanic, then probably it would not work out. Unless we go with Baltic Finns as source of Noromaa, that Baltic Finns met East Balts after Germanics is evidenced by "Laiva" (in Baltics from Finnics from Germanic). Anyway, I give it that it might not be very convincing.

  7. #215
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    "В конце перечня между «корсью» и «либью» названа «норома» (по другим спискам «нерома», «морома», «морева», «морва», а в одном случае «нарова». Это единственное упоминание в летописи «норомы».

    https://arheologi.livejournal.com/4946.html

    Taking these various forms into account the connection to Finnish noro does not seem very probable.

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  9. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Noro, nora is indeed in (dialectal) Finnish a wet depression, however at least Samic dictionary Algu seems to suggest Germanic origin < *no(o)ra. So, I'm not sure how would it work. Also, a wet hollow does not equal lowland, now that we want to be precise and nero is not even noro. That being said, it has been suggested that Nero, the name of the lake next to Rostov, is based on Meryanic Inero "big (lake"). So, fex lake Plateliai, being a big lake, might have a relation to (I)neroma, but ine "big" is not a Finnic word.
    There is also a Proto-Uralic word *n'ëri 'damp'. It is not found in the westernmost branches, but it would give West Uralic *n'ari and further Meryanic *n'o(o)ri.

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  11. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    There is also a Proto-Uralic word *n'ëri 'damp'. It is not found in the westernmost branches, but it would give West Uralic *n'ari and further Meryanic *n'o(o)ri.
    Very interesting, I wonder if or actually guess that there's a connection to Finnish place names such as Nuorajärvi "-lake", Nuorasuo "-swamp", but why not also Nörönlahti "-bay" etc. through a later diphthong.

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  13. #218
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    Related to *no(o)r:, there seem's to be the same *n'o(o)ri, *mo(o)ri duality in Finnish place names as in the names such as Neroma, Meroma pointing to Meryans, for instance Muori "lake" and Muorijärvi "-lake "vs. Nuorajärvi "-lake". Maybe this is based on later drift, as the original words have become unknown, maybe there was something leading into this in the original language i.e. Meryanic itself?

    I'm not sure to what extent this is then related to Samogitia as for instance Noroma. Being "lowland" it possibly indeed is, in relative terms, a wet-tish depression? But, do we have other Meryanic place names in the region?

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  15. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Related to *no(o)r:, there seem's to be the same *n'o(o)ri, *mo(o)ri duality in Finnish place names as in the names such as Neroma, Meroma pointing to Meryans, for instance Muori "lake" and Muorijärvi "-lake "vs. Nuorajärvi "-lake". Maybe this is based on later drift, as the original words have become unknown, maybe there was something leading into this in the original language i.e. Meryanic itself?

    I'm not sure to what extent this is then related to Samogitia as for instance Noroma. Being "lowland" it possibly indeed is, in relative terms, a wet-tish depression? But, do we have other Meryanic place names in the region?
    This is the list of potential FU hydronyms in Lithuania. Jaska also did a check on them. Does not seem too frequent or of great quality, so who knows:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....s-in-Lithuania

    Edit:
    you may ignore word final -as, -is, that is just Baltic grammar.

    Edit2: based on Jara (river in NE Lithuania, named by lake Jara) and Jarupys (very small river in Central (!) Lithuania, apparently language is either Baltic Finns or West Chud-ish.
    Jarupys - jar (lake FU) + upys (river Baltic).
    From Paul Rahkonen:
    "The phonetic developments in this area outline certain linguistic isoglosses. There is a rather clear
    boundary of the words for ‘lake’: WU1 *jäkra/ä > Mer. jäγra/ä, Proto-Saami *jāvrē, East
    Čude *jädra/ä and WU2 *järkä > Moksha Mordvin *(j)äŔkä, West Čudian *järi, Late Proto-Finnic
    *järve. A"

    Edit3: but interesting that there is no Jar+ something toponyms in Latvia, at least that I could recall. Not even in North Latvia/Vidzeme. Livonian is järv.
    Last edited by parastais; 04-16-2021 at 08:44 AM.

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  17. #220
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    River Osuga Finnic ? < * - joki/ Meryanic < *juga "river", joining Volga south of Rzev and almost joining rivers Bereza/Berezhka going upstream towards West, in Zavidovo and leading towards lake Mostovskoye, Finnic ? < *musta "black". Not very far from Dvina any more, at least.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 04-16-2021 at 06:49 AM.

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