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Thread: Societal Structure of Ion Age Estonians

  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Another option, could be checked somehow, is whether in Salaca Livonian palatization went further kele-> cele -> sele. And root then is simply related to küla.
    The idea is good, but *k has remained in all Livonian dialects.

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  3. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    The idea is good, but *k has remained in all Livonian dialects.
    K before i/e or k in general?

    Edit:
    I actually now the answer k has turned at minimum into c in Salaca Livonian before i/e. Can't find a source, but they based it on interchanged writing k'=t' and g'=d' in different ancient placenames. Including also Atzele itself: Ad'zele = Ag'zele.
    problem however is that it likely did not go further into s, z. Because then Adsele is irregular (k>c>s in sele, but only g>dz in Ad, not g>dz>z)....
    So, likely not the answer...
    Last edited by parastais; 04-29-2021 at 07:20 AM.

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  5. #233
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    "Most likely, the Leivu can be regarded as descendants of the indigenous Finnic population of northern Latvia. Since the hinterlands of Aluksnes Templa kalns hill fort include the later Leivu occupation areas, it seems the Leivu can probably be regarded as indigenous descendants of the "Chud of Ochela"."

    https://www.academia.edu/43841375/Di...uthern_Estonia

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  7. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    "Most likely, the Leivu can be regarded as descendants of the indigenous Finnic population of northern Latvia. Since the hinterlands of Aluksnes Templa kalns hill fort include the later Leivu occupation areas, it seems the Leivu can probably be regarded as indigenous descendants of the "Chud of Ochela"."

    https://www.academia.edu/43841375/Di...uthern_Estonia
    What is funny: leivu and līvi correspond to normal High Latvian sound change:
    Latvian - Latgalian
    rīts - reits, sīrups - seirups, līst - leist, etc = līvi - leivi
    Last edited by parastais; 04-29-2021 at 08:52 AM.

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  9. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    That is also Salaca Livonian. And South Finnic in general, but I also quoted somewhere in this topic an opinion of one author who noted there were several sound changes in South Finnic languages as common or influenced by something Mordvinic.
    The quote is here:
    “ Besides the influence of the neighbouring Indo-European languages, factors that might explain the characteristic features of Southern Finnic languages are the peripheral location, mutual contacts between the languages of the group, and hy- pothetically, also the influences from other, now extinct, Finno-Ugric languages. For instance, if we compare the Southern Finnic languages with Mordvin lan- guages, we can see several similar traits, including the above example concern- ing velar vowel harmony, but also the unrounded central vowel of the stressed syllable, e.g. Moksha kə̑ rda ‘time’, the wide-spread palatalization of consonants: eś ‘(one)self’, etc. Part of the common features of Southern Finnic and Mordvin sound systems can be explained by similar Baltic and Slavic influences, although not everything; also likely are similar contacts within the language family and a common substrate. This might be also indicated by some similarities between the Southern Finnic languages and Saamic, which were not treated here.” (Paljusalu, “Phonological Innovations of the Southern Finnic Languages“).

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  11. #236
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    I believe I mentioned this before however, it may have got lost with the other discussion going on. I would like to hear some other people's thoughts on the distribution of N-L550.

    Obviously this was the lineage present in the Estonian Tarands. However, only one of these samples made its way to YFull; IIa_1 which apparently belongs to a dead branch of N-L550*. This is interesting considering it was a medieval sample, thus I would have expected it to be farther downstream.

    https://yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

    While sampling bias may muddy the picture, plenty of Estonians have done genetic testing. From those results, it seems that N-L1022 is common among Estonians, while N-L550 is less common and so far, always downstream from Baltic/Fennoscandian branches.

    Looking solely at modern diversity, early N-L550 branches are strongly associated with Sweden and to a lesser degree SW Finland.

    "Baltic" subclades are N-L550+ N-L1025+, for example N-Y6075. The oldest of these have estimated TMRCAs of 2200ybp, a few centuries later than the "Swedish" subclades e.g. N-Y9454 (TMRCA 2800ybp).

    This looks to be reflected by aDNA, as the most recent Kivutkalns samples were dated to 200BC, with no Y-hg N.

    I would suggest that Estonia acted as a "springboard' of sorts, that allowed N-L550 to spread across the Baltic with early-Tarands (800-500BC). Typical-Tarands in Estonia (and even the later <500BC early-Tarands) don't seem to have spread much and their lineages may have been later replaced by other N subclades.

    The majority of modern N-L550 subclades may have then spread from Sweden (specifically Uppland), possibly with Nordic Iron Age influences seen across the Baltic and later Viking expeditions.
    Last edited by Zelto; 05-08-2021 at 08:15 PM.

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  13. #237
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    For L-1025 in Balts. I still have not reached a satisfying conclusion.
    Hypothesis were ranging wide from (what you suggested) Germanised superstrate (from Baltic Sea islands, Vendel Age) to Baltified local groups (ranging from West Uralic to South Finnic), but none of them kinda fits.

    Indeed Estonians are largely L-1022. And their L-1025 which is also common is mostly below Z-16981 (my haplo, always forgot actual numbers) - which seems to be some sort of linguistically North Baltic - West Baltic affair (perhaps related to North or West Baltic loanwords in Finnic, see Kallio on two Baltic loanwords layers).

    What is even more strange and people seem to not understand this - Baltic N had nothing to do with Livonians!! Based on regional researches (unfortunately they did not go into N details) Latvians from North Courland and West Vidzeme show same large structure of Y lines as Estonians (R1a ~ N1c, lots of I1, increased R1b compared to Balts, etc). From which I am making assumption that Livonians and Estonians were largely same people Y wise. And assimilated Livonians were not the source of Baltic L-1025.

    Also I think Lithuania has the biggest N-L1025 (or had, have not rechecked this) diversity. Also highest density in North East Lithuania. In Latvia I think Eastern Latvia has highest density.

    This made me dig into Selonian direction. But so far nothing certain.

    Oldest L1015 in Baltics was unfortunately low quality Lithuanian_IA sample (ca 300 AD, North Lithuanian Barrows Culture, itself spread from Baltic coast with (likely) West Balts). But could also be contamination so yeah..

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  15. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    I would suggest that Estonia acted as a "springboard' of sorts, that allowed N-L550 to spread across the Baltic with early-Tarands (800-500BC). Typical-Tarands in Estonia (and even the later <500BC early-Tarands) don't seem to have spread much and their lineages may have been later replaced by other N subclades.

    The majority of modern N-L550 subclades may have then spread from Sweden (specifically Uppland), possibly with Nordic Iron Age influences seen across the Baltic and later Viking expeditions.
    That's certainly possible. N-L550 makes up about 5% of male lineages in Finland which is about half as much as N-L1022. A significant portion of these are Swedish speaking Finns(including people with recent Swedish speaking ancestry). With such a low percentage among Finnish speaking Finns, there could be some ratio of typical Scandinavian lineages linked with it(excluding the most common Finnish subclade of I1 although that's very arbitrary). It does not have any prominent frequencies outside Swedish speaking areas as far as I know being quite evenly distributed across western and southern Finland. With this hypothesis we'd expect to find significant Scandinavian admixture in most of the N-L550 from the Roman Iron Age to Medieval times. Unfortunately almost all the samples from that period are ethnically Scandinavians except IIa_1 so this can't be tested yet.
    Although not on YFull VK579 is the oldest Scandinavian L550 according to FamilyTreeDNA.

    Sample: VK579 / Oland 1099 1785/67 35
    Location: Oland, Sweden
    Age: Iron Age 200-400 CE
    Y-DNA: N-L550
    mtDNA: H1s

    Target: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA:VK579
    Distance: 3.8364% / 0.03836359
    69.0 Swedish
    30.0 Finnish
    1.0 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.0 Estonian

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  17. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    For L-1025 in Balts. I still have not reached a satisfying conclusion.
    Hypothesis were ranging wide from (what you suggested) Germanised superstrate (from Baltic Sea islands, Vendel Age) to Baltified local groups (ranging from West Uralic to South Finnic), but none of them kinda fits.

    Indeed Estonians are largely L-1022. And their L-1025 which is also common is mostly below Z-16981 (my haplo, always forgot actual numbers) - which seems to be some sort of linguistically North Baltic - West Baltic affair (perhaps related to North or West Baltic loanwords in Finnic, see Kallio on two Baltic loanwords layers).

    What is even more strange and people seem to not understand this - Baltic N had nothing to do with Livonians!! Based on regional researches (unfortunately they did not go into N details) Latvians from North Courland and West Vidzeme show same large structure of Y lines as Estonians (R1a ~ N1c, lots of I1, increased R1b compared to Balts, etc). From which I am making assumption that Livonians and Estonians were largely same people Y wise. And assimilated Livonians were not the source of Baltic L-1025.

    Also I think Lithuania has the biggest N-L1025 (or had, have not rechecked this) diversity. Also highest density in North East Lithuania. In Latvia I think Eastern Latvia has highest density.

    This made me dig into Selonian direction. But so far nothing certain.

    Oldest L1015 in Baltics was unfortunately low quality Lithuanian_IA sample (ca 300 AD, North Lithuanian Barrows Culture, itself spread from Baltic coast with (likely) West Balts). But could also be contamination so yeah..
    That is true, attempting to explain the distribution of N-L1025 is quite difficult. But considering that its TMRCA is 2500ybp on YFull (300 years younger than many "Swedish" N-L550 subclades) and its own more northerly distributed subclades, like N-Y4706 (TMRCA 2500ybp). I would argue that it is still nested below a Swedish Iron Age N-L550* population.

    However, an expansion from this Nordic Iron Age population clearly couldn't have been its only mechanism of spread. Increased social stratification with chiefdom (later princedom) based societies could allow for rapid Y-haplogroup turnover from an arriving elite, without effecting the local auDNA. This may have occurred within certain Baltic tribes, who then spread their own branches of N-L550 further.

    This IMO, is the most reasonable explanation, which accounts for problems in other theories.

    1. The lack of N-L550 diversity in Estonia and the opposite in Sweden. The non-"Swedish" subclades seem to have spread slightly later.

    2. Early-Tarands having a relatively limited range (none in the Baltic, outside of Estonia and Livonia). Typical-Tarands shifted inland and disappear from Livonia/Sweden.

    3. The lack of Y-hg N in early Iron Age Baltic aDNA (Kivutkalns).

    4. The medieval Estonian sample in YFull belongs to a seemingly dead branch of N-L550*, suggesting local branches weren't very successful.
    Last edited by Zelto; 05-09-2021 at 10:19 PM.

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  19. #240
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    I used to draw similar conclusions, but then this expansion should have happened really early. Before CE early. Edit: bolded lines are what I perceived as big ones. I could have made a mistake though.

    L-1025: formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp

    Then there are following lines under L1025
    N-BY30389 (BY21928): formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp. Sweden - Finland
    N-Y60725Y80354 (Y75471, Y60725): formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybp. Russia (Cherkessia Caucasus and Kursk)
    N-Y13982Y13982 (Y13983, Y14117): formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp. Lithuania and other branch Portugal
    N-A11940 (A11939, BY21880): formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp. Two subbranches (Scandinavia and Bashkirs)
    N-Y5580: formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp.
    --------- N-Y93996 - Poland&Lithuania and branch in Krasnodar
    --------- N-BY158* (not L591) : Russia (Voronezh, Smolensk, Tatarstan), Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland
    ---------N-BY158 (L591): Lithuanian
    N-L551: formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 1850 ybp - Lithuanian
    N-Z16975: formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp - Belarus, Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland, from Russia again Kursk, Bryansk
    N-Y4706: formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp - different lines, many Finnish + Swedes + specific line for Tatars and Volga Rus
    N-Z16981: formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp
    ---------N-Y6075: formed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp - West Slavic exclousive
    --------N-CTS8173: formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp - Latvian & Estonian centered + specific line for Tatars
    --------N-Y11882: formed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 1750 ybp - Latvian, Estonian, Belarus + again some Tatars, and branches seem to split one Lat/Est - other Ukraine
    Last edited by parastais; 05-10-2021 at 11:17 AM.

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