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Thread: DF41 Haplotype Clusters and Geography

  1. #1
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    Question DF41 Haplotype Clusters and Geography

    Taking a look at the map feature at the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, here is how the DF41 haplotype clusters and subclades line up.

    Haplotype Clusters

    41-1013: the northern half of Ireland

    41-1123: Wales and SW England (the one in SW England appears to have a Welsh surname, however)

    41-1410: northern half of Ireland

    41-1426
    : Scotland and the northern half of Ireland (with Scots surnames)

    41-9919: Scotland, Isle of Man, and the northern half of Ireland

    Subclades

    L563: Isle of Man

    L745: Scotland, northern England

    At first glance, the obvious propensity of DF41 for Scotland, Man, and the northern half of Ireland suggests a Gaelic correlation. The odd factor is cluster 41-1123, which appears to be Welsh.

    Comments?
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1a

  2. #2
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    "Insular Celtic" might be a better description. There's definelty a clustering around the Irish sea, some of which may tie in with the Gall-Ghaeil and Viking era. We have to remember that before the Gall-Ghaeil arrived in Galloway it was probably "Brythonic" speaking (in reality a language/dialect close to "Old-Welsh"). Likewise there's some argument that Isle of Man was only Gaelicised with the arrival of the Vikings.

    Sometimes I think there's an interesting parallel with DF23 (and it's major subclade M222). We see for example DF23+, M222- in the South-West of Britain. M222 itself probably arose in Northern Britain, it then exploded in density in Ireland. It wouldn't surprise me if there's something similiar going on with DF41. Movement northward within Britain before arriving in Ireland (where it didn't do much -- my cluster aside ).

    Generally the archaelogists talk about somewhat of an Iron age darkage in Ireland. Drop in archaelogical finds etc, with the appearance of contact/influence coming into the North-East via Northern Britain from about 200BC onwards.

    from perspective of language, the situation 2,200 years ago wasn't particularly different. Both "Goidelic" and "Brythonic" are often termed "Insular Celtic", at this stage there wouldn't been a huge difference between them, alot of linguistic changes (multiple sound changes etc.) probably arose during period 0-400AD. Brythonic after all been influenced by Latin (due to Roman occupation) this helping to shape "Old Welsh". I like to sometimes to think that the differences as been somewhat like difference between say Modern German and Modern Dutch. Not unsurmountable, and fairly easy to adapt between with some effort.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  3. #3
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    Well, DF41 definitely appears to be a clade of the western portion of the Isles. Thus far there are no real eastern exemplars, except one 41-1426, an otherwise Scottish cluster, whose mdka was born in the London metro area, a magnet for immigrants.

    "Insular Celtic" is not much resolution, and thus not very satisfying, since that moniker can be applied to all of insular L21.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1a

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    "Insular Celtic" is not much resolution, and thus not very satisfying, since that moniker can be applied to all of insular L21.
    Only by people who persist in thinking that people ~ 5000 years ago were "Celts."

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, DF41 definitely appears to be a clade of the western portion of the Isles. Thus far there are no real eastern exemplars, except one 41-1426, an otherwise Scottish cluster, whose mdka was born in the London metro area, a magnet for immigrants.

    "Insular Celtic" is not much resolution, and thus not very satisfying, since that moniker can be applied to all of insular L21.
    Given the age of DF41 you aren't really going to get any further resolution. For example the concept of a "Gael" is really one of the post-christianisation of Ireland. The word Gael itself is actually a borrowing from welsh into Irish!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Only by people who persist in thinking that people ~ 5000 years ago were "Celts."
    IF they spoke "Proto-Celtic" then they were Celtic speakers, simples, though it's debatable if the deletion of Proto-Indo-European *p occurred so early. I'm more inclined to think Proto-Celtic arose during the mid to late Bronze age. The deletion of *p is one of key features of Proto-Celtic that sets it apart from Proto-Italic (and other Indo-European branches).

    Of course it's somewhat academic given that DF41 isn't probably any older then 2-2,500 years ago. If it arose in the Isles then at that timeframe it would have arisen in a population that spoke variously dialects of "Insular Celtic".

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  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Only by people who persist in thinking that people ~ 5000 years ago were "Celts."
    Notice I said the moniker "Insular Celtic" could be applied to all of insular L21. Are you arguing that L21 was already in the Isles ~5000 years ago? If so, are you arguing that nothing has happened since, and that there were no insular Celts who were L21+?

    My own opinion, in which I do persist, is that L21 arrived in the Isles during the Copper or Bronze Age with the Beaker Folk and that they did indeed speak an early form of Celtic.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1a

  9. #8
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    There is a lot of hooey out there about L21, the Celtic haplogroup. I'm pleased to see that rms2 only persists in the Insular part of it. But I have an opinion about the rest; it's right up there with DF27, the Iberian haplogroup, and U106, the Germanic haplogroup.

    Look at that anachronistic ethnic, religious and national stuff; but also look at the calendar, the archaeological record, and the phylogeny closer to the tree trunk. At some level we're all talking about ourselves, in a non-Indo-European language, and the Isles are under an ice sheet. It's possible to make distinctions that aren't helpful.

  10. #9
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    I do get the impression from L21 subclades that most do indeed belong to the period where common insular celtic was spoken in both islands, the P-shift had not yet spread etc. I am a very strong believer that the P shift is insignificant in the isles and merely an aerial fashion added to insular Celtic in Britain. Everything about Gaelic and Welsh shows that they were far far more like each other than either was to continental Celtic. The similarities of both the Gaelic and British Celtic languages is deep and structural while the difference of the P-shift in Welsh is a petty areal thing. I have seen various estimates but my belief is that Irish and British languages were identical insular Celtic as late as perhaps 500BC and that the P-shift in British is a late change.

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  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    There is a lot of hooey out there about L21, the Celtic haplogroup. I'm pleased to see that rms2 only persists in the Insular part of it. But I have an opinion about the rest; it's right up there with DF27, the Iberian haplogroup, and U106, the Germanic haplogroup.

    Look at that anachronistic ethnic, religious and national stuff; but also look at the calendar, the archaeological record, and the phylogeny closer to the tree trunk. At some level we're all talking about ourselves, in a non-Indo-European language, and the Isles are under an ice sheet. It's possible to make distinctions that aren't helpful.
    I'm not exactly sure what point it is you're trying to make, unless it is the old one that haplogroups are older than many historical ethnic, tribal, and language groups, etc. Honestly, what difference does that make? Haplogroups and their subclades still have distributions that indicate, perhaps imperfectly, where their bearers were at certain times, and we know, within reason, what languages, cultures, tribal affiliations, etc., were current then in those areas.

    My own view is that P312 was predominantly Indo-European from its nativity onward. Wish I had more time right now.

    In my view L21 is one of the Celtic haplogroups, not the only one.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-24-2014 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Spelling error
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1a

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