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Thread: David W. Anthony Presentation on Steppe Genetics & Societal Organization (March 2021)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Really fascinating video, despite all the Sredney Stog samples being female would have to imagine its the source or culture that birthed R-M269, also pretty convinced Cernavoda Culture will be responsible for R-PF7562.
    its seems pretty obvious now that the big pciture is now sredny stog culture> Corded ware > Bell Beaker. Now the question is who are the ancestors of sredny stog ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    its seems pretty obvious now that the big pciture is now sredny stog culture> Corded ware > Bell Beaker. Now the question is who are the ancestors of sredny stog ?
    I’m still under the impression Sredny stog>Yamnaya>Corded Ware. I don’t think its a coincidence that they are autosomally identical. Tocharian being the most likely offshoot of Afansievo, so Yamnaya was involved, Yamnaya is probably ancestral to the more obscure branches of IE. IMHO Sredny Stog is the ancestor of PIE and Anatolic if that makes sense?
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    Here's our most Steppe-rich CWC sample, poz81. Only .SG Yamnaya samples we have are Kalmykia and Kazakhstan so had to use Afanasievo, but you get the point.

    Poland_CWC_poz81.SG
    "Afanasievo_AfanasievaGora.SG" 69.1
    "Afanasievo.SG" 20.95
    "Ukraine_Dereivka_EBA" 9.45
    "Mota.SG" 0.5
    "distance%=0.1666 / distance=0.001666"
    Columns:,Anatolia_Barcin_N,Levant_N,Iran_GanjDareh _N,CHG.SG,Taforalt,Vanuatu_ancient,PrimorskyKrai_B oisman_MN,Peru_Laramate_900BP,Karelia_HG,IronGates _Meso1,Yamnaya_Samara,Ust_Ishim.DG

    That little big of extra HG in Dereivka makes a big difference.
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    Anthony mentions here that the most CHG-rich sample north of Caucasia is from Berezhnovka, on the Volga. Courtesy of Zulfiqar on Eurogenes blog. I wonder how much it actually has. You can see a few of them marked on the first PCA in the original video, but unfortunately I don't see them demarcated on the second PCA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    its seems pretty obvious now that the big pciture is now sredny stog culture> Corded ware > Bell Beaker. Now the question is who are the ancestors of sredny stog ?
    The only problem with this, which is something many people are ignoring, is that there is a five century gap between the Sredny Stog culture and the formation of the Corded Ware culture if not more. And those five centuries brought a lot of change with them.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 03-31-2021 at 06:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The only problem with this, which is something many people are ignoring, is that there is a five century gap between the Sredny Stog culture and the formation of the Corded Ware culture if not more. And those five centuries brought a lot of change with them.
    What about that ?

    The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West
    Maybe we jus't didn't find archeologic trace of sredny stog/corded ware pottery between 3500BC-3000BC, maybe the archeological dates are not very precise ? idk
    Last edited by Dieu; 03-31-2021 at 11:38 AM.

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    Anthony goes on here



    https://youtu.be/1O1zDrW7SvE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    its seems pretty obvious now that the big pciture is now sredny stog culture> Corded ware > Bell Beaker. Now the question is who are the ancestors of sredny stog ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I’m still under the impression Sredny stog>Yamnaya>Corded Ware. I don’t think its a coincidence that they are autosomally identical. Tocharian being the most likely offshoot of Afansievo, so Yamnaya was involved, Yamnaya is probably ancestral to the more obscure branches of IE. IMHO Sredny Stog is the ancestor of PIE and Anatolic if that makes sense?
    So this would seem to validate Parpola's theory in part. Parpola brings Sredny Stog from Khvalynsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Finnish vatsa ~ Sanskrit vatsá- and the formation of Indo-Iranian and Uralic languages Parpola

    "Finnish vatsa and its cognates go back to a Proto-Finno-Ugric borrowing from the Indo-Aryan sub-branch of the Aryan alias Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family ...


    established that the roots of Early Proto-Indo-European (PIE) are in the Neolithic Khvalynsk culture (5000–4500 BCE) of the Mid-Volga. (This location in Mid-Volga is close enough to the Kama Valley around which the Uralic homeland probably was situated to account for the earliest linguistic relations between the IndoEuropean and Uralic language families.) In the Copper Age, the Khvalynsk people expanded westwards, to the area of the Dnieper-Donets culture, thereby creating the pastoralist Srednij Stog II culture (4700–3500 BCE) of the Pontic steppes.

    In the last quarter of the fifth millennium BCE, the Srednij Stog II people of the Pontic steppes invaded the Balkans, caused great destruction to the local cultures, and founded there the Cernavoda culture (4000–3200 BCE). Through this and the following Ezero culture (3300–2700 BCE) (Fig. 3), the Early PIE language seems to have entered from the Balkans to Anatolia, where the pottery of the Troy I culture (2900–2500 BCE) (Fig. 3) has its origin in the Ezero culture. This archaeological chain enables to derive the Hittite and Luwian languages from Early PIE (Mallory 1989: 233–243; Anthony 2007: 225–262; Parpola 2008: 33–36).

    At the same time as they invaded the Balkans, the Srednij Stog II people also invaded the Tripolye culture, but did not destroy it. (Mallory 1989: 235–237; Anthony 2007: 230–239). On the contrary, the Srednij Stog chiefs apparently took over the rule in the Tripolye culture, which became the most populous agricultural community of the Copper Age world.

    At the same time as the Srednij Stog II people invaded the Balkans and the Tripolye culture, they also invaded northern Caucasus, founding there the splendid Majkop culture (4000–3000 BCE).

    the fact that Proto-Finno-Ugric had Aryan loanwords suggests that Proto-Uralic speakers formed the substratum of the Abashevo people in their new northern habitat in the forest zone, and that the two people mingled together into one bilingual society ...

    While the majority of the Proto-Indo-Aryan speakers of the Abashevo culture seem to have moved to the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures, the Uralic speakers apparently prevailed in the Mid-Volga-Kama-Belaya area, where the Abashevo culture was succeeded by the Prikazan culture (1900–800 BCE) which received immigrants from both the Alakulʹ Andronovo (linguistically belonging to the Indo-Aryan branch) and from the early Pokrovo variant of the Srubnaya culture (Fig. 5), descended via the KMK alias Babino III culture (2100–1850 BCE) from the Catacomb Grave culture (linguistically belonging to the Iranian branch)."

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    The early sredny stog sample comes from site? Does anyone knows?
    Last edited by rob101; 03-31-2021 at 03:34 PM.

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