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Thread: David W. Anthony Presentation on Steppe Genetics & Societal Organization (March 2021)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Sample with the most CHG not in the Caucasus but in Volga Delta/Estuary in the Caspian Sea 7000/6000 BC
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MOrEA84qvo
    But their CHG ancestry is from the Caucasus. It moved into the steppe a very long time ago. I've been saying this for years, because it's so obvious that it can't be from Iran.

    And you're ignoring the fact that it's now also obvious that Yamnaya got its CHG from a forager population that was native to the steppe.

    Again, that's what I've been saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    CHG from a forager population that was native to the steppe
    When do you think that population arrived? Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we're talking 15,000+ years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    When do you think that population arrived? Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we're talking 15,000+ years ago.
    Right, they probably weren't recent migrants. Their expansion north may even have happened when the ancestors of Satsurblia arrived in Georgia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    What I always told: Yamnaya is a mixture of EHG/CHG_Iran from the Caspian Sea and CHG_Iran moved (invaded) into the steppe.
    I've got a present for you. Maybe you can understand this.

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/...al-wisdom.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    its seems pretty obvious now that the big pciture is now sredny stog culture> Corded ware > Bell Beaker. Now the question is who are the ancestors of sredny stog ?
    I would like to agree, but, David (he may yet be right), is deliberately vague when he talks about 'Yamnaya'. The Steppes burials thus far *only show R1b-L23-Z2103 + I2* and he knows this. So he skirts around the missing R1b-L23-L51 and the missing R1a (in Steppes Kurgans) by 'saying' (not proving) that the Y-DNA found in the Kurgans thus far, is in his opinion (ok - maybe) an élite who ruled the others who didn't qualify for Kurgan burial. And this is why after 4 years they can't show L51 among them.

    When he mentions the 'Yamnaya' with a close (4-5 gen) DNA spread from Afanasievo to Eastern Slovakia to Moldovia & focuses on the central location of Sredny Stog in Sth East Ukraine, he is *only( talking about Z2103+I2 and the mtDNA found in particular Sredny Stog burials.

    David has been telling us for over 4 years we will find L51 in kurgans in either the Steppes or the Hungarian plains, but they just keep turning up Z2103 + I2 aBurials. Hence his ''they were the elites' theory that covers all those areas. It is too big an ask & while Sredny Stog was known as a hub for R1a (esp Z93) claiming Yamnaya started from there is still saying 'trust me'. The oldest L23 & Z2103 are in the area between Samara & Orenburg (to the east of Samara). That today is the best bet for Z2103 (thus Yamaya) origins. Again this assumes that 'Yamnaya' kurgans keep throwing up Z2103 + I2 & no L51. And, if my radar is correct, there are still no L51 in Yamnaya Steppes settings in the unpublished aBurials from the Steppes. Yes a L51-L52 did show up in Afanasievo, and we may yet see the same match show up in Bulgaria near Varna. But the open Pontic Steppes are thus far the preserve of the Yamnaya and they being Z2103 + I2.

    So lets see what new pubs add to this. It is a real dragged out story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    I would like to agree, but, David (he may yet be right), is deliberately vague when he talks about 'Yamnaya'. The Steppes burials thus far *only show R1b-L23-Z2103 + I2* and he knows this. So he skirts around the missing R1b-L23-L51 and the missing R1a (in Steppes Kurgans) by 'saying' (not proving) that the Y-DNA found in the Kurgans thus far, is in his opinion (ok - maybe) an élite who ruled the others who didn't qualify for Kurgan burial. And this is why after 4 years they can't show L51 among them.

    When he mentions the 'Yamnaya' with a close (4-5 gen) DNA spread from Afanasievo to Eastern Slovakia to Moldovia & focuses on the central location of Sredny Stog in Sth East Ukraine, he is *only( talking about Z2103+I2 and the mtDNA found in particular Sredny Stog burials.

    David has been telling us for over 4 years we will find L51 in kurgans in either the Steppes or the Hungarian plains, but they just keep turning up Z2103 + I2 aBurials. Hence his ''they were the elites' theory that covers all those areas. It is too big an ask & while Sredny Stog was known as a hub for R1a (esp Z93) claiming Yamnaya started from there is still saying 'trust me'. The oldest L23 & Z2103 are in the area between Samara & Orenburg (to the east of Samara). That today is the best bet for Z2103 (thus Yamaya) origins. Again this assumes that 'Yamnaya' kurgans keep throwing up Z2103 + I2 & no L51. And, if my radar is correct, there are still no L51 in Yamnaya Steppes settings in the unpublished aBurials from the Steppes. Yes a L51-L52 did show up in Afanasievo, and we may yet see the same match show up in Bulgaria near Varna. But the open Pontic Steppes are thus far the preserve of the Yamnaya and they being Z2103 + I2.

    So lets see what new pubs add to this. It is a real dragged out story.
    I thought we don't have Sredny Stog samples. The Z93 was misdated.

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    If R1b were part of the domestication of cattle 8000BCE in Eastern Anatolia woudn't they have moved to the Steppes after that?

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    Absolutely key are some things I'm repeating for years, starting at 6:30:
    - They haven't found Yamnaya and later CW lineages to the East, the Eastern groups are not ancestral. He points at about 6:30 exactly where they have to look, at the Lower Don region. Because the Lower Don culture will be the ultimate source.
    - Sredny Stog is identical with Yamnaya, and yes, its the source, steming from the Lower Don Culture, from which both Khvalynsk and Yamnaya came from.
    - Yamnaya is probably just a branched off group from SSC, which ultimately didn't have that much of an impact, but the core Sredny Stog had, because from them Cernavoda, Usatovo, Dereivka (proper) and ultimately Corded Ware developed.

    They should just forget about the Volga region, CHG only krept up slowly there and mixed with regional groups, with those moving up being just replaced by newer waves from the real centre and concentrate on the Don region. That there are still no samples from Rakushechny Yar complex out there yet (?), anywhere (?), is a shame and like missing the point. Because at least culturally, the input from R. yar was key for the first stage. The later stages were developed under Western Neolithic, especially TCC (primarily) and Maykop (secondarily) influence, but the Don region was the primary cradle and source region.

    Also interesting, that Usatovo (Moldova) being shown as clearly SSC-Yamnaya related on the PCA, just like expected. On the way South they mixed with TCC and Balkan Neolithics. Its not about Yamnaya, its about Sredny Stog from which Yamnaya and the other major steppe groups descend from. Khvalynsk is even more clearly just a low impact branched off group from LDC-SSC. They don't represent anything of importance for the later steppe people's developments and PIE. Anthony did recognise it and is honest about it, because he puts the source region in the Ukraine(-Southern Russian Don region) too by now, going after this video.
    Last edited by Riverman; 04-01-2021 at 11:59 AM.

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    The Southern cline of CHG_Iran (Anthony did mentioned Georgia and NW Iran 0:53 in the first video) population in the Volga River was just the spearhead of a big ancestral and ancient population or mating complex behind those vanguards in the Caspian Sea. They were not alone, isolated or were exclusive from the Caucasus, a pretty small region, but they had a big Southern Continuum still unknown since the Last Glacial Maximum - LGM. They found almost "pure" EHG from Murzikha in the forest but they still can't assess where were the next close "pure" CHG_Iran population that was in the South. We have the Complexo de Conquistador from Western Iberia and the first historical America and we know history is made of frontiers of war, mestiçagem, advancing vanguards bringing new genetic components, new Y-DNA, new technologies, economies and their own native-born language, culture and religious values in a tumultuous and violent process. The model is not of a Y-DNA stucked in the same territory (usually a forest, high mountain or swamp) for 4000 or more years, but constant frontiers of war, movements and expansions, everything is bigger, more dangerous, threatening and chaotic in the new frontiers, that's the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    The Southern cline of CHG_Iran (Anthony did mentioned Georgia and NW Iran 0:53 in the first video) population in the Volga River was just the spearhead of a big ancestral and ancient population or mating complex behind those vanguards in the Caspian Sea. They were not alone, isolated or were exclusive from the Caucasus, a pretty small region, but they had a big Southern Continuum still unknown since the Last Glacial Maximum - LGM. They found almost "pure" EHG from Murzikha in the forest but they still can't assess where were the next close "pure" CHG_Iran population that was in the South. We have the Complexo de Conquistador from Western Iberia and the first historical America and we know history is made of frontiers of war, mestiçagem, advancing vanguards bringing new genetic components, new Y-DNA, new technologies, economies and their own native-born language, culture and religious values in a tumultuous and violent process. The model is not of a Y-DNA stucked in the same territory (usually a forest, high mountain or swamp) for 4000 or more years, but constant frontiers of war, movements and expansions, everything is bigger, more dangerous, threatening and chaotic in the new frontiers, that's the way.
    The biggest problem will be underwarter archaeology, because I think the main movement of CHG which reached the Lower Don region and was crucial in establishing R. yar and surrounds was happening along the coastal line which is now under the sea level. They were fishermen primarily and became herders secondarily (ovicaprids). These people established a half-Neolithicised cultural formation which in turn fell under the dominance of local forager-fisher clans. These foragers were the carriers of the PIE R1b+R1a lineages in the Lower Don culture. I'd assume that in the earliest stage of the settlements CHG will be even more dominant and still more related patrilineages alive, especially J. But over time, the R1b+R1a combo will increase, probably in a short time or in a longer term process. This is key as to who spoke which language, because a process-like shift would indicate either party could have contributed the language, whereas a short term change makes the EHG-part the clearly best option. I'd assume it was a more drastic shift, conquest-like, which means the local EHG's spoke the pre-PIE dialects, but this needs to be investigated.
    The situation is pretty similar to other regions in Europe where I2 took control over formerly G2 dominated farmer groups, just with an even stronger and more obvious autosomal genetic impact.
    Once the Lower Don culture was firmly established, there was no change in patrilineages or language in the core group any more, but just branching and founder events, like SSC, Khvalynsk, Yamnaya, Corded Ware etc.
    Last edited by Riverman; 04-01-2021 at 01:33 PM.

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