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Thread: Eurogenes K13 SSA admixture

  1. #1
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    Eurogenes K13 SSA admixture

    Hello, I have a doubt with this calculators I socre 2% SSA wich is normal for west IBerians, but I don't understand If I try another calculator like Dodecad K12b this componnent disappers and seems to score North African.

    Are the same components?

    My K13 results with 4 Oracle


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 41.00
    2 West_Med 30.54
    3 East_Med 10.93
    4 Baltic 10.57
    5 West_Asian 3.94
    6 Sub-Saharan 2.01


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.009466
    2 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.681139
    3 Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.393596
    4 Southwest_French @ 5.435990
    5 Spanish_Aragon @ 5.641302
    6 Spanish_Valencia @ 5.649868
    7 Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.911522
    8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.710854
    9 Spanish_Extremadura @ 7.090941
    10 Spanish_Murcia @ 7.144280
    11 Spanish_Galicia @ 7.498978
    12 Portuguese @ 7.862679
    13 French @ 13.639343
    14 North_Italian @ 14.395987
    15 French_Basque @ 16.192135
    16 South_Dutch @ 19.787565
    17 West_German @ 20.322134
    18 Tuscan @ 21.675751
    19 Southwest_English @ 23.774023
    20 Southeast_English @ 23.776249

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Southwest_French +50% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.110271


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% French_Basque +25% Greek_Thessaly +25% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.674798


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Bulgarian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.628881
    2 French_Basque + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.674798
    3 French_Basque + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Valencia @ 2.698764
    4 French_Basque + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.725528
    5 French_Basque + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Southwest_French @ 2.818063
    6 French_Basque + North_Italian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.819196
    7 French_Basque + North_German + Sardinian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.858649
    8 French_Basque + North_German + Sardinian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.863013
    9 French_Basque + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.898334
    10 Bulgarian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Spanish_Valencia @ 2.922088
    11 French_Basque + North_German + Sardinian + Spanish_Murcia @ 2.931524
    12 French_Basque + North_German + Sardinian + Spanish_Valencia @ 2.946685
    13 Danish + French_Basque + Sardinian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.947057
    14 French_Basque + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.962675
    15 French_Basque + North_Italian + Sardinian + West_Scottish @ 2.964303
    16 French_Basque + North_Italian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Valencia @ 2.992350
    17 French_Basque + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.006001
    18 Danish + French_Basque + Sardinian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.019387
    19 French_Basque + North_Italian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.020629
    20 French + French_Basque + Sardinian + West_German @ 3.030828


    My Dodecad K12b

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic_Med 45.37
    2 North_European 25.48
    3 Caucasus 16.56
    4 Gedrosia 4.90
    5 Northwest_African 4.25
    6 Southwest_Asian 1.30


    Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
    12 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 6.498343
    2 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 7.765873
    3 Extremadura_1000Genomes @ 8.402210
    4 North_Italian_HGDP @ 9.424479
    5 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 9.479509
    6 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 9.554641
    7 Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes @ 9.924947
    8 Spaniards_Behar @ 10.414885
    9 Cataluna_1000Genomes @ 10.712344
    10 Murcia_1000Genomes @ 10.815248
    11 Andalucia_1000Genomes @ 11.411382
    12 Spanish_Dodecad @ 11.420540
    13 Cantabria_1000Genomes @ 12.538167
    14 Canarias_1000Genomes @ 12.638818
    15 Valencia_1000Genomes @ 12.823708
    16 Castilla_La_Mancha_1000Genomes @ 13.212233
    17 Aragon_1000Genomes @ 14.015759
    18 French_HGDP @ 14.769445
    19 French_Dodecad @ 15.277676
    20 TSI30_Metspalu @ 16.644510

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes +50% N_Italian_Dodecad @ 4.569051


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Andalucia_1000Genomes +25% Bulgarians_Yunusbayev +25% Cataluna_1000Genomes @ 3.400493


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Canarias_1000Genomes + CEU30_1000Genomes + Romanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 2.934537
    2 Canarias_1000Genomes + Dutch_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 2.942322
    3 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Valencia_1000Genomes + Valencia_1000Genomes @ 2.951408
    4 Canarias_1000Genomes + English_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 2.982378
    5 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Orkney_1000Genomes + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.010496
    6 Canarias_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.014852
    7 Argyll_1000Genomes + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.021311
    8 British_Isles_Dodecad + Canarias_1000Genomes + Romanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.034234
    9 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Cantabria_1000Genomes + Valencia_1000Genomes @ 3.034799
    10 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Spaniards_Behar + Valencia_1000Genomes @ 3.047159
    11 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Cataluna_1000Genomes + Valencia_1000Genomes @ 3.049471
    12 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + CEU30_1000Genomes + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.052600
    13 Canarias_1000Genomes + Kent_1000Genomes + Romanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.065832
    14 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Canarias_1000Genomes + CEU30_1000Genomes + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.067099
    15 British_Isles_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + Canarias_1000Genomes + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.080587
    16 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + English_Dodecad + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.091249
    17 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Orcadian_HGDP + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.096525
    18 British_Isles_Dodecad + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.106372
    19 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Canarias_1000Genomes + English_Dodecad + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.111071
    20 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Canarias_1000Genomes + Orkney_1000Genomes + Sardinian_HGDP @ 3.111104

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     Pedro Ruben (03-27-2021)

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    It happens because ''SSA'' in case of Iberians almost always comes from North African/Berber input. Different calculators will give you different amounts of it based on their North African references. You need to understand that the northernmost Berbers are around 75-80% Eurasian and 20-25% African. This is a contentious topic in this forum because apparently Moroccans are not happy with (I don't see what's the problem, but who knows,,,) but it doesn't matter the mental gymnastics someone do, in a K3 calculator that's what they would score.

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    Sure Iberian SSA comes from Berebers during muslim rule.
    thanks for the info that's what I belived.

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    Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle

    K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

    Mine
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 40.81
    2 West_Med 29.04
    3 Baltic 10.00
    4 East_Med 6.81
    5 West_Asian 5.78
    6 Red_Sea 3.11
    7 Northeast_African 2.34
    8 Siberian 1.32

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Spanish_Cantabria +50% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.981552
    1 French_Basque + French_Basque + Romanian + Spanish_Extremadura @ 4.688785


    Father
    K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 39.52
    2 West_Med 28.36
    3 Baltic 12.10
    4 East_Med 11.77
    5 Sub-Saharan 3.91
    6 Red_Sea 2.11
    7 Siberian 1.23
    8 West_Asian 1.00

    1 50% Spanish_Cantabria +50% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.980949
    1 Southwest_French + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Valencia @ 3.856262


    My father doesn't seem to get that SSA value from North Africa or even get NA and they also seem to be calculators from 8 years ago.

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     Pedro Ruben (03-28-2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hantrolugharsts View Post
    Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle]

    My father doesn't seem to get that SSA value from North Africa or even get NA and they also seem to be calculators from 8 years ago.
    Your father has North African ancestry, it's just that K13 doesn't have a specific North African reference (Northeast African is Nilotic-like, it's not specifically North African as most people think and probably capture some eastern kind of Ancient North African in NAs and Iberians) so it might be lumped to components North Africans are made of: East Med, SSA (this I think is Yoruba-like), Northeast African, West Med, Red Sea etc. Moreover, modern North Africans are very hard to model due to the references still being kind of imperfect.

    It's perfectly possible to estimate the North African % in a Portuguese or Spanish by the % of Sub-Saharan + Northeast African. In G25 you can do the same with Taforalt + SSA. If modern Moroccans, especially North Moroccans, are around 20-25% Northeast African + Sub-Saharan, then your father is around 1/8 North African.
    Last edited by Caius Agrippa; 03-27-2021 at 02:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caius Agrippa View Post
    Your father has North African ancestry, it's just that K13 doesn't have a specific North African reference (Northeast African is Nilotic-like, it's not specifically North African as most people think and probably capture some eastern kind of Ancient North African in NAs and Iberians) so it might be lumped to components North Africans are made of: East Med, SSA (this I think is Yoruba-like), Northeast African, West Med, Red Sea etc. Moreover, modern North Africans are very hard to model due to the references still being kind of imperfect.

    It's perfectly possible to estimate the North African % in a Portuguese or Spanish by the % of Sub-Saharan + Northeast African. In G25 you can do the same with Taforalt + SSA. If modern Moroccans, especially North Moroccans, are around 20-25% Northeast African + Sub-Saharan, then your father is around 1/8 North African.
    Are you also of the belief that IBM is ~50% SSA? I know some think it is just a basal lineage but unrelated to SSA but based off of how both admixture and g25/PCAs plot Taforalt, it seems quite likely that the ~50% non-Eurasian side of IBMs is very SSA-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    Are you also of the belief that IBM is ~50% SSA? I know some think it is just a basal lineage but unrelated to SSA but based off of how both admixture and g25/PCAs plot Taforalt, it seems quite likely that the ~50% non-Eurasian side of IBMs is very SSA-like.
    The position you alludes to, of ANA being ''Basal Eurasian'', is nothing more than the old ''cope''. Most defenders of this position are North Africans who happen to have racial issues, it's more a political debate than a proper genetic debate. I don't think there is much meaning in the ''SSA'' term and in the future the nature of different African lineages will be more clear, one thing for sure is that ANA is inside the African clade. The Shum Laka paper makes clear that Taforalt is only 46% Eurasian; however it is possible that what we call ''Basal Eurasian'' would be closer to ANA than some deeper and more archaic African components are.
    Last edited by Caius Agrippa; 03-27-2021 at 02:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    North Moroccans/Atlas Berbers are within 10-14% ballpark .

    'Northeast African' component on Eurogenes is partially Eurasian, let's not forget what have been learnt . Its quite outdated, better suggest the fellow man to pursue G24 coordinates instead.

    If fellow is let's say 6% Taforalt, 1-2% affinity to Africa is pretty normal.
    Math is simple: average North Moroccan is roughly 7% modern SSA and 30% Taforalt. It gives more or less 22% African ancestry if we go by academic papers.
    Last edited by Moderator; 03-28-2021 at 05:28 PM. Reason: ToS 3.11 (Personalized discussion Violation) Post edited

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    Math is simple: average North Moroccan is roughly 7% modern SSA and 30% Taforalt. It gives more or less 22% African ancestry if we go by academic papers.
    Well that's wrong. Average is North Moroccans is 5% and I've seen many Riffians and Atlas Berbers scoring 3% SSA but, average North Moroccans is more like 25-26% Taforalt when using the good population donors (the North Moroccan average also include some individuals scoring very low SSA and 30% Taforalt but they seem to be from Central Atlas judging by their profile).

    In any case it gives 10-14 ballpark for North Moroccans. That's what I get when modeling North Moroccans as Anatolian Neolithic + CHG/EHG +Levantine + Dinka/Yoruba. They get 10-12%.

    They also plot in between Copts and Mozabite in the African-Eurasian line wich fits 10-14% . North Moroccans can't be more African than Mozabites who are below 20% already.
    Last edited by Moderator; 03-28-2021 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Violation quote removed

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Well that's wrong. Average is North Moroccans is 5% and I've seen many Riffians and Atlas Berbers scoring 3% SSA but, average North Moroccans is more like 25-26% Taforalt when using the good population donors (the North Moroccan average also include some individuals scoring very low SSA and 30% Taforalt but they seem to be from Central Atlas judging by their profile).

    In any case it gives 10-14 ballpark for North Moroccans. That's what I get when modeling North Moroccans as Anatolian Neolithic + CHG/EHG +, Natufian + Dinka/Yoruba. They get 13%.

    They also plot in between Copts and Mozabite in the African-Eurasian line wich fits 10-13% . North Moroccans can't be more African than Mozabites who are below 20% already.
    It's at least 20% minimum for the northern average, this is supported by the fact a 6% modern SSA harboring Moroccan will still plot closer to SSA pops. than an Egyptian with 15-20% modern SSA.

    Target: Moroccan_North
    Distance: 1.7947% / 0.01794689
    36.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    30.2 MAR_Taforalt
    11.0 Levant_PPNB
    7.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.6 Yoruba
    6.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    2.8 WHG

    30/2 = 15+6 = 21%

    Admixture used to drop 25% on Maghrebis which seemed high at the time because we had no IBM or ANA component to work with. Looking back it made sense, it wasn't admixture at fault but our own resources and understanding. The evidence never lies so to speak.

    Target: Mozabite
    Distance: 2.2200% / 0.02220006
    34.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    32.8 MAR_Taforalt
    9.8 Levant_PPNB
    9.8 Yoruba
    5.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    5.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 WHG
    0.4 Dinka

    Mozabite average is at least 36% SSA-related. Plots ahead of Morocco North accordingly.

    edit: without IBM models for Maghrebis fail entirely so can't really be taken seriously I don't think.
    Last edited by Moderator; 03-28-2021 at 05:29 PM. Reason: Quote edited from violation

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