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Thread: New Kazakh samples

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Pardon I do not know the R1a tree very well. Which of the mesolithic and neolithic R1a samples so far discovered are potentially ancestors of the Balto-slavic/indo-iranian ones?
    None of them, IMO. I would also add that they are not ancestors of Z283 and CTS4385 either.
    There seems to be to some connection between Baikal Neolithic and Ukraine Neolithic, and the ancestor is perhaps in one of these populations.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201269
    Last edited by parasar; 04-13-2021 at 03:27 PM.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    None of them, IMO. I would also add that they are not ancestors of Z283 and CTS4385 either.
    There seems to be to some connection between Baikal Neolithic and Ukraine Neolithic, and the ancestor is perhaps in one of these populations.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201269

    The only problem is that neither on Lake Baikal nor in the Balkans nor in Anatolia there is no R1a, not a single one at all, and in the steppes of Samara (Khvalinsk) and Ukraine (Vasilievka) there is R1a-M459*, which is the direct ancestor of all existing branches of R1a. Even if they are basal xM198.
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 04-13-2021 at 04:55 PM.

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  4. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Nearly all of R1a1 today (perhaps 99+%) in the world is M198, M17, M417, which is the line I am talking about going into Central Europe and the Baltics.
    The EHG R1a type has little to do with M417.
    1. PES001 Russia 10785-10626 BC M459 YP1272 YP1301
    2. I1819 Vasilevka Ukraine 8825-8561 BC M459
    3. I5876 Dereivka Ukraine 7040-6703 BC M420 YP4141>pre-YP5018
    4. I0061 Karelia Russia 6800-5950 BC M459
    5. I0433 Khvalynsk Russia 5200-4000BC M459
    6. MA975 Estonia 3653-3376 BC M459 M459 YP1272
    7. Sites Serteya VIII and II
    A3 Site Serteya VIII boundary of V-IV mill. BC [Likely M459]
    A8 and A9 Site Naumovo Site Serteya II middle of III mill. BC

    The I6561 sample in Sredny Stog II Alexandria, Ukraine is M417 Z94 Y26.

    I0432 Poltavka Outlier (Potapovka 1) from Samara Bend, Russia, 2925-2536 BC is Z93 Z94 Z2124 Z2121

    Both of these samples happen to be significantly southern shifted.
    Your arguments, as usual, are incoherent.

    There are no instances of ancient R1a south of Eastern Europe and the steppes until the Bronze Age, and there never will be.

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  6. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Can you point out where they are prominently featured?
    Almost forgot

    To begin, let's break down the name of the person who is said to have composed the Gathas, Zarathustra himself.

    Zarathustra Haechataspa Spitama.

    Haechataspa meaning something akin to " having trained horses".

    Then we have his patron saint, king and important figure in the Zoroastrian religion, Vishtaspa.

    " Owning several horses".

    Jamaspa was the name of an early convert and official in the court of Vishtaspa. Etymology is uncertain but it could be something like "leads/bridles horses".

    Three prominent figures having names related to horses, names indicating that horses were desired propoperties and that they were trained for purposes.

    Here are a couple of excerpts from the Gathas;

    30.10:

    For then the destruction of the prosperity of Deceit will descend And the swiftest [steeds] will be yoked to the dwelling place of Good Mind, Which will race ahead unto the good fame of the Wise One and of Truth

    30.10. adā.zī. auuā. drūjō. auuō. bauuaitī. skəṇdō. spaiiaϑrahiiā.at̰. asištā. yaojaṇtē. ā.huṣ̌itōiš. vaŋhə̄uš. manaŋhō.mazdā̊. aṣ̌ax́iiācā. yōi. zazəṇtī. vaŋhāu. srauuahī.

    (Y. 30.10 aṱ asištā yaojaṇtē ā hušitōiš vaŋhəˊuš manaŋhō “two steeds will be harnessed to ride to the good residence of the good Thought”)
    44.18;
    This I ask Thee, tell me truly, Ahura - whether I shall indeed, O Right, earn the reward, even ten mares with a stallion and a camel, which was promised to me, O Mazda, as well as through thee, the future gift of Welfare and Immortality.

    tat̰. ϑβā. pərəsā. ərəš.mōi. vaocā. ahurā:kaϑā. aṣ̌ā. tat̰. mīždəm. hanānī. dasā. aspā̊. arṣ̌nauuaitīš. uštrəmcā. hiiat̰. mōi. mazdā. apiuuaitī. hauruuātā.amərətātā. yaϑā. hī. taēibiiō. dā̊ŋhā.
    50.6

    May the giver of intellect instruct (my intellect) with good thought to serve (my) tongue (as) charioteer of my prayer.

    āta xratə š hizuuō raiϑīm stōi mahiiā rāzə ng vohu sāhīt mananha
    50.7

    For you I will harness the swiftest steeds, stout and strong, by the promptings of your praise, that ye may come hither, O Mazda, Right, and Good thought.

    50.7. at̰. və̄.1 yaojā.2 zəuuīštiiə̄ṇg.3 auruuatō.4jaiiāiš.5 pərəϑūš.6 vahmahiiā.7 yūṣ̌mākahiiā.mazdā. aṣ̌ā. ugrə̄ṇg. vohū. manaŋhā.yāiš. azāϑā.8 mahmāi. x́iiātā. auuaŋhē.9
    50.8
    51.12: The Kavi's wanton did not please Zarathushtra Spitama at the Winter Gate, in that he stayed him from taking refuge with him, and when there came to him also (Zarathushtra's) two steeds shivering with cold.

    nōit̰. tā. īm. xṣ̌nāuš. vaēpiiō. kəuuīnō. pərətō. zəmō.zaraϑuštrəm. spitāməm. hiiat̰. ahmī. urūraost. aštō.hiiat̰. hōi.īm. caratascā. aodərəšcā. zōiṣ̌ənū. vāzā
    There probably are a bunch of others which I missed on the account of me not speaking any Iranian language, by way of metaphors I don't recognize.

    For example on the metaphors in 50.7;

    "Yes, I shall yoke for you the swiftest steeds, those wide (going) with the victories of your glory and strong with both truth and good thinking, the steeds with which ye shall race (ahead), would ye be ready for my help." Y50.7.

    We know that Zarathushtra is using "horses" metaphorically here, because real horses do not live in the "good dwelling place of good thinking" and are not "strong with both truth and good thinking" Y50.7 above. That Zarathushtra chose "horse" as a metaphor for those who are strong with truth and good thinking, thus winning the race for the Wise Lord, may have been a graceful compliment to Vishtaspa and Jamaspa (aspa being horse in Gathic).

    In Y48.2 Zarathushtra uses a racing metaphor almost as a manner of speech.

    “Tell me what things Thou dost know, Lord, before the far end of the course shall come to me….” Y48.2

    By this phrase, Zarathushtra meant, “before I reach the finish line”, i.e. before I die.

    These metaphors give us a sense of the society in which Zarathushtra lived – one which was agrarian, and also had warriors who fought on horseback, and whose games, to sharpen their skills, included racing, as we see in the Shahnameh. That horses, here mean those whose truth and good thinking win the race for the Wise Lord, against His enemies (deceit, cruelty, oppression et cetera), is apparent. It is not unlike the way the term "horse" was used in Europe, from the Middle Ages, (where it signified the number of mounted warriors a feudal lord or king could command), down to Victorian times, (where "horse" was used as a cavalry term, indicating a martial resource – a soldier who fought on horseback).
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 04-14-2021 at 10:07 AM.

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  8. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    The Pechenegs are one of the Oghuz tribes as mentioned in several medieval sources including the source of Mahmud al-Kashgari, so it is just a process of seperating from the group, mixing, expanding territories in phases of time and the changing and transmission of the ruling dynasties, etc.
    That's not the whole of story. The bulk of the Pechenegs were forced to leave due to the pressure of the Oghuz, Karluks and Kimaks. Those who didn't migrate were incorporated into the Oghuz confederation and became the 19th tribe of them.

    I choose to ignore the rest of your post, I'm not really a fan of baseless theories.
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  10. #226
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    http://tmtur.ru/ahalteke_horses
    Nevertheless, the remains of a cart with bronze rims, a stone statuette of a horse with a clearly marked saddle, signal pipes for the construction of horsemen, and most importantly - the oldest burial of a sacrificial foal in Central Asia and the Middle East. This is evidence that the domestic horse was present in the traditional way of life of the inhabitants of the ancient country of Margush already at the end of the 3rd - beginning of the 2nd millennia BC!
    HORSES OF THE ANCIENT COUNTRY OF MARGUSH
    https://www.elibrary.ru/item.asp?id=39373247
    Finds made at the Bronze Age monument of Turkmenistan Gonur-Depe (2300-1600 BC), showing the presence of horses at that time, are described. Both bone remains (8 individuals) and zoomorphic plastic (bronze tops of wands, goilian and stone figurines) are known. There is reason to believe that these findings are one of the earliest evidence of the use of these animals by the ancient population of Central Asia.
    Last edited by Ral; 04-14-2021 at 12:15 PM.

  11. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    I choose to ignore the rest of your post, I'm not really a fan of baseless theories.
    Reading "An evaluation on The Kangli Tribes" you can see that the Chinese sources mention the fact that the Kangju and the Xiongnu were speaking different dialects of the same language. So, the core of the Kangju population were definetely not Indo-European speakers. The Sogdians were Indo-European speakers, and the Sogdians definetely mixed with the Kangju and many other tribes (like the later Turks) in Central Asia. But the core of the Kangju has a distinct genetic profile and is different from the original Indo-European speakers (like the Tocharians, original Sogdians, Persians and Vedic) who were originated from the Northern regions (Pontic Caspian and South Siberian Steppe). And if we look at the limited number (7) of Turk individuals tested in Choongwon et al 2020, we see a prevalent amount of BMAC paternal markers (besides the autosomal BMAC component) just like the ones found among the Otyrar Oasis Kangju whom is even more close to the BMAC profile. The early medieval / late iron age Kangju were dated earlier than the later medieval Turk population (and the Oghuz Yabgu state is even later), meaning that the latter are an eastern offshoot of the earlier Kangju like population, which will give you an idea of which language the original Kangju spoke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    That's not the whole of story. The bulk of the Pechenegs were forced to leave due to the pressure of the Oghuz, Karluks and Kimaks. Those who didn't migrate were incorporated into the Oghuz confederation and became the 19th tribe of them.
    In the early medieval period the Oghuz were already divided into several different groups like the "Toquz Oghuz" and the "Uc Oghuz", showing the fact that the Oghuz tribe is a way earlier phenomenon (including mixing with more norhternly located tribes like the Kipchak) which occured probably a couple of millennia earlier than the Turk period. And this means that in the early 11th century AD, if there is a historical record of Mahmud al Kashgari whom defines the fact the Pechenegs are a branch of the way older Oghuz tribe (Rashid-al-Din Hamadani from the 13th century AD also defines the same fact), we should accept this fact, otherwise we are going into the direction of pseudo science. Not seeing the ethymological fact that "Kang-ju" and "Kang-ar" are based on the same name, and not seeing the fact that both earlier (Kangju) and later states (Kangar) were located in similar regions is not even pseude science but is beyond-pseudo-science.

    The relations between the dozens of tribes (of the Indo European, Turk, Sino Tibetan, Proto Mongolian language speakers) in Central Asia (the Northern and Southern regions) is very complex, and is a process based on historical events like seperating from the main group, mixing, uniting with other tribes from the same language group, expanding territories in phases of time and the changing and transmission of the ruling dynasties, etc.

  12. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    What you are confusing as Shak might be medieval Huns before and after Gupta empire later settled as Chauhans etc.. The earlier layers are more connected with Tibeto-burmese people spread out over huge area. The ancient Sakya clan, Licchavis , Ikshvakus etc.. might have been Chalcolithic people + Tibeto-burmese + SIS BA1/2 populations. The MLBA era movements from further north than these Shaka people came in briefly mixed with BMAC/Gandhar and then moved into Ganges plains settled down. The results that you are seeing from later Chauhans and Gujjars confusing with these earlier group of Sakyas and MLBA brahmins
    How much Steppe_MLBA these earliest Brahmins had ?

  13. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post

    The relations between the dozens of tribes (of the Indo European, Turk, Sino Tibetan, Proto Mongolian language speakers) in Central Asia (the Northern and Southern regions) is very complex, and is a process based on historical events like seperating from the main group, mixing, uniting with other tribes from the same language group, expanding territories in phases of time and the changing and transmission of the ruling dynasties, etc.
    I think we should be more careful about assigning linguistic terms like IndoEuropean and SinoTibetan/Tibetan-Burmese to ethnic groups. Tibetan nomadic tribes are very different from settled Hans and Tocharians were very different from the Indians and Europeans. Manchus/Koreans/Japanese/Vietnamese are culturally and genetically more related to Hans than the Tibetans and I believe Tocharians were similar to neighboring Sogidians.

    Linguistically speaking Russian is much more closer to Hindi than Tibetan is to Mandarin.
    So I find it perplexing that identity of Tibetans and central Asians are subsumed into some vague super linguistic group while ignoring very real genetic/cultural/linguistic diffrences.
    Last edited by Songtsen; 04-15-2021 at 04:13 PM.

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  15. #230
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    Eh, Indoeuropean and Sino-Tibetan are linguistic terms. They only tell you about linguistic side and nothing more. Like culturally, Uzbeks and Tajiks are much closer than Uzbeks and Yakuts or Tajiks and Irish people. But linguistically it's other way round. But that's fine, linguistic origins/classification doesn't have to correlate with cultural classification.

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