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Thread: Full list of all Egyptian Y-DNA samples on YFull

  1. #1
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    Full list of all Egyptian Y-DNA samples on YFull

    Egypt is still one of the most under-tested populations relative to historical population size, but in the last year there are have dozens of Egyptian samples- both from private individuals and from studies- that have been added to YFull. In the spreadsheet below I have gathered all of the samples on the whole YTree and guessed about each one's origin. There is a total of 94 individuals spread over 80 different terminal SNPs.

    It should be noted that this sample is not representative of actual frequencies, as projects focusing on particular subgroups often upload more kits than the average, thus oversampling some lineages. For example, currently J1 is the biggest haplogroup in the reference, but none of the samples from academic studies are in J1. Please rely on studies with larger and fairer sample sizes for gauging relative sizes of each haplogroup and subclade among Egyptians.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Let me know if you disagree with any of my origin guesses; I'd be happy to change them if a good argument can be made.
     
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    Nice to see myself listed here "Origin West Asian; ultimately European; deeply diverged". Well not sure about West Asian, but generally I agree with your origin notes. What makes you assume west Asian for it?

    The dominance of J1 and Arabian origin is curious. Others have made the same comment about the FTDNA Egypt group results that also show a dominance of J1. But without proper academic studies, we simply don't have enough data to go on with Egypt.
    According to this map that I recently stumbled on through twitter, Egypt is probably the least tested country in the entire MENA region.

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    J1 is dominant here because most of the Egyptians who got tested are Egyptians of Arabian origin from tribes and are very interested in knowing their ydna.

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    I disagree. Egyptians are extremely poor and internet penetration is incredibly low in Egypt. These results are biased towards upper class city dwellers and diaspora Egyptians. No way are rural and tribal Egyptians paying $100 to $500 to get ancestry tests. They neither have the income to support something like that, nor do they have the education level to even understand what y-haplogroups are and how they may be important, nor do they sit around on the internet consuming media about genetics and ancestry. For the vast majority of Egyptians, this is completely outside their sphere of interest and understanding, and that's especially true for rural and tribal people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    Nice to see myself listed here "Origin West Asian; ultimately European; deeply diverged". Well not sure about West Asian, but generally I agree with your origin notes. What makes you assume west Asian for it?
    Very cool! Thanks for reaching out.

    I assumed West Asian because it is so deeply diverged and I doubt that it was a recent (as in, historical period) migration from Europe to Egypt. I-L596, your clade's parent, also has I-Y16419, which is c. 3900 ybp and mostly West Asian as well. That said, you certainly may have evidence to the contrary. Did you test at FTDNA? If so, do you have any matches at any level?

    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    The dominance of J1 and Arabian origin is curious. Others have made the same comment about the FTDNA Egypt group results that also show a dominance of J1. But without proper academic studies, we simply don't have enough data to go on with Egypt.
    According to this map that I recently stumbled on through twitter, Egypt is probably the least tested country in the entire MENA region.
    Right, as I said in my original post, we can tell that J1 is overrepresented here because none of the scientific samples (which I think we can assume were from a random sample) are in J1. Rather, we see a lot of E-M2, E-M35, and R-V88.
    Last edited by leorcooper19; 04-23-2021 at 04:13 PM. Reason: added I-Y16419
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    I assumed West Asian because it is so deeply diverged and I doubt that it was a recent (as in, historical period) migration from Europe to Egypt. That said, you certainly may have evidence to the contrary. Did you test at FTDNA? If so, do you have any matches at any level?
    Yup tested with Ftdna and have no matches at any level. Though the public haplotrees has 1 match in Reunion Island. But since it's a hugely diverse island, i have no idea whether that's a French immigrant or Arab or anywhere else. I did, however, do a search on ysearch before it closed due to GDPR, and I found 1 match in Saudi and 1 in Iran. So all i know at the moment is that there are 4 matches: Egypt, Saudi, Iran, and Reunion Island. I really have no clue whether it's from a historical migration or neolithic or what, and that's my main goal to find out.


    Right, as I said in my original post, we can tell that J1 is overrepresented here because none of the scientific samples (which I think we can assume were from a random sample) are in J1. Rather, we see a lot of E-M2, E-M35, and R-V88.
    What scientific samples do you mean? I presume you can't tell from yfull which ones are from studies and which aren't, right?
    Do you mean studies published in journal studies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    Yup tested with Ftdna and have no matches at any level. Though the public haplotrees has 1 match in Reunion Island. But since it's a hugely diverse island, i have no idea whether that's a French immigrant or Arab or anywhere else. I did, however, do a search on ysearch before it closed due to GDPR, and I found 1 match in Saudi and 1 in Iran. So all i know at the moment is that there are 4 matches: Egypt, Saudi, Iran, and Reunion Island. I really have no clue whether it's from a historical migration or neolithic or what, and that's my main goal to find out.
    Very interesting. Seems like it probably is not recently European at all then.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    What scientific samples do you mean? I presume you can't tell from yfull which ones are from studies and which aren't, right?
    Do you mean studies published in journal studies?
    In the spreadsheet, I have a column for the sample names. The samples with the YF prefix are private uploads to YFull, while samples with the ERS prefix are scientific samples from published papers.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Right, as I said in my original post, we can tell that J1 is overrepresented here because none of the scientific samples (which I think we can assume were from a random sample) are in J1. Rather, we see a lot of E-M2, E-M35, and R-V88.
    Academic samples of Egypt have been rather heavily tilted toward little oases in the Western Desert. But the ones on YF are AFAIK almost all from the D'Atanasio et al Green Sahara paper, which targeted specifically E-M78, E-M2, A-M13, and R1b-V88 - so not a random sampling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Academic samples of Egypt have been rather heavily tilted toward little oases in the Western Desert. But the ones on YF are AFAIK almost all from the D'Atanasio et al Green Sahara paper, which targeted specifically E-M78, E-M2, A-M13, and R1b-V88 - so not a random sampling.
    Thanks for the correction! Much appreciated.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Very interesting. Seems like it probably is not recently European at all then.
    But if it was an ancient migration, then wouldn't we expect it to be far more predominant in the region? If there was some small neolithic or bronze age migration then I would expect it to be common in parts of the Middle East, but I-L596 is rare everywhere. Although all of the downstream subclades from mine are purely western European, I still expect to wake up one morning and find a direct Iranian or Anatolian match on yfull indicating a recent migration to the Arab region.


    In the spreadsheet, I have a column for the sample names. The samples with the YF prefix are private uploads to YFull, while samples with the ERS prefix are scientific samples from published papers.
    Ok I see, thanks for clarifying. But other studies have definitely shown a lot of J1 in Egypt. Bekada et al. (2013) showed around 21% J1, making it the single largest group in Egypt. Haplogroup E as a whole was larger, but it is extremely divided:
    E-M33 0.5%
    E-P2 2.4%
    E-M35 3.2%
    E-M78 0.8%
    E-V12 7%
    E-V32 1.6%
    E-V13 0.8%
    E-V22 9.2%
    E-V65 2.4%
    E-M81 11.9%
    E-M123 6.8%

    The others were:

    J2 6.8%
    G 5.7%
    R1b 5.9%
    R1a 2.2%
    T 6.2%
    I 0.5%

    If I recall correctly there are other studies as well that show J1 being common in Egypt. I'd have to dig them up. The only question is how common and when it dates to. Interestingly, the 2 clades of E often touted as being truly pharaonic, E-V22 and E-V12 aren't that common. Even R1b which is a proven lineage of pharaohs is only at 6% 5,000 years later. To me, at least, that's really surprising.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that E-M81, which is a Berber marker only around 1,500 years old, is somehow at 12% in Egypt, much higher than the 2 clades touted as autocthonous Egyptian. It boggles the mind.
    Last edited by bunduqdari; 04-23-2021 at 05:49 PM.

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