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Thread: Full list of all Egyptian Y-DNA samples on YFull

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    But if it was an ancient migration, then wouldn't we expect it to be far more predominant in the region? If there was some small neolithic or bronze age migration then I would expect it to be common in parts of the Middle East, but I-L596 is rare everywhere. Although all of the downstream subclades from mine are purely western European, I still expect to wake up one morning and find a direct Iranian or Anatolian match on yfull indicating a recent migration to the Arab region.
    Not necessarily. The oldest AMH Y chromosomes in West Asia would be in C, D0, and F, and yet these are extremely tiny to non-existent in the region. G, T, and H were also much more common in West Asia once, but they too have declined significantly. In general, genetic drift and gene flow determines the size and spread of Y-DNA Haplogroups, with everything else (time in an area, for example) being smaller, contributing factors to the end result.

    Again, even though we know that I-S6635 was in Europe by around 9300 ybp, with both your lineage and I-Y16649 being found almost entirely outside of Europe tells me that some branches of I-L596 migrated into West Asia into Europe during the Paleolithic.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    Ok I see, thanks for clarifying. But other studies have definitely shown a lot of J1 in Egypt. Bekada et al. (2013) showed around 21% J1, making it the single largest group in Egypt. Haplogroup E as a whole was larger, but it is extremely divided:

    If I recall correctly there are other studies as well that show J1 being common in Egypt. I'd have to dig them up. The only question is how common and when it dates to. Interestingly, the 2 clades of E often touted as being truly pharaonic, E-V22 and E-V12 aren't that common. Even R1b which is a proven lineage of pharaohs is only at 6% 5,000 years later. To me, at least, that's really surprising.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that E-M81, which is a Berber marker only around 1,500 years old, is somehow at 12% in Egypt, much higher than the 2 clades touted as autocthonous Egyptian. It boggles the mind.
    Normally I would think a n=370 sample size is good enough, it just may not be in this case; I can't imagine how 12% E-M81 would work anywhere in Egypt except maybe the northwest. Either way, there's no question that J1 is indeed a significant haplogroup among Egyptians, it's just not as common as YFull would imply. E-V12 and E-V22's sizes are probably a bit bigger than those rates, but it is clear that there has been significant Y-DNA replacement in Egypt throughout the historical period.
     
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Not necessarily. The oldest AMH Y chromosomes in West Asia would be in C, D0, and F, and yet these are extremely tiny to non-existent in the region. G, T, and H were also much more common in West Asia once, but they too have declined significantly. In general, genetic drift and gene flow determines the size and spread of Y-DNA Haplogroups, with everything else (time in an area, for example) being smaller, contributing factors to the end result.

    Again, even though we know that I-S6635 was in Europe by around 9300 ybp, with both your lineage and I-Y16649 being found almost entirely outside of Europe tells me that some branches of I-L596 migrated into West Asia into Europe during the Paleolithic.
    Good points all. I guess I can't do anything else at this point except wait for more matches to be found.


    Normally I would think a n=370 sample size is good enough, it just may not be in this case; I can't imagine how 12% E-M81 would work anywhere in Egypt except maybe the northwest. Either way, there's no question that J1 is indeed a significant haplogroup among Egyptians, it's just not as common as YFull would imply. E-V12 and E-V22's sizes are probably a bit bigger than those rates, but it is clear that there has been significant Y-DNA replacement in Egypt throughout the historical period.
    Agreed. There are no studies on Egypt like there are for Algeria or Tunisia or Saudi. I'm eagerly waiting for someone to extract some dna from some Old Kingdom mummies, and also for a proper nation-wide population-weighted study of modern Egyptians. I don't remember the methodology of that Bekada paper anymore, but 12% E-M81, a group that's only 1,500 years old. It just makes no sense. If I had to guess I'd imagine that they weighted the provinces incorrectly and Siwa oasis came out with a high majority of E-M81 that skewed the total results. Or something like that.

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    [Delete]
    Last edited by Lupriac; 05-09-2021 at 08:46 PM.

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    I disagree. Egyptians are extremely poor and internet penetration is incredibly low in Egypt. These results are biased towards upper class city dwellers and diaspora Egyptians. No way are rural and tribal Egyptians paying $100 to $500 to get ancestry tests. They neither have the income to support something like that, nor do they have the education level to even understand what y-haplogroups are and how they may be important, nor do they sit around on the internet consuming media about genetics and ancestry. For the vast majority of Egyptians, this is completely outside their sphere of interest and understanding, and that's especially true for rural and tribal people.
    If you go to the egypt ftdna project most of the names are of those who are from Arabian tribes and mostly j1. Tribal doesn't mean poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisdandy View Post
    If you go to the egypt ftdna project most of the names are of those who are from Arabian tribes and mostly j1. Tribal doesn't mean poor.
    Indeed true , and Gulf states pay them bigY tests so they get free Y test just because of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Indeed true , and Gulf states pay them bigY tests so they get free Y test just because of that.
    Bingo

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisdandy View Post
    If you go to the egypt ftdna project most of the names are of those who are from Arabian tribes and mostly j1. Tribal doesn't mean poor.
    Well this is categorically and demonstrably false. I'm listed in the Egypt FTDNA project myself.

    If this is your claim, then feel free to go into the group and list here all the tribal names so that we can establish whether "most of the names are those of Arabian tribes."
    Besides that, Arabian tribe names are common in Egypt, so I don't know on what basis you intend to discount them when they appear.


    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Indeed true , and Gulf states pay them bigY tests so they get free Y test just because of that.
    Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever or is this simply a racist stereotype of rich Gulf Arabs?
    Last edited by bunduqdari; 05-24-2021 at 04:15 PM.

  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    Well this is categorically and demonstrably false. I'm listed in the Egypt FTDNA project myself.

    If this is your claim, then feel free to go into the group and list here all the tribal names so that we can establish whether "most of the names are those of Arabian tribes."
    Besides that, Arabian tribe names are common in Egypt, so I don't know on what basis you intend to discount them when they appear.




    Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever or is this simply a racist stereotype of rich Gulf Arabs?
    Of course I can...do you think I'm stupid?

    Al wasli
    Al huweiti
    Tarabin
    Banu shaheen
    Al ogbi
    Al sawarka
    Al turaifi
    Al atawla
    Look in my attachment. All these j1 Egyptians in there are from Arabian tribes!!!Screenshot_20210524-151428_Samsung Internet.jpg

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    First of all, you listed 8 names out of the entire Egyptian FTDNA group. How on earth is that most of the names?? I mean clearly you haven't proven your statement at all.

    Second, the single Howeiti guy is haplogroup B, not J. And there are several Al-Oqbis in the list. Two of them are haplogroup E and 1 is haplogroup T. 2 are J1 and one is J2. So hardly an explanation for the dominance of J1 in this list.

    Third, Al-Turaifi isn't a tribe. Turaif is a village in Palestine, but the surname itself doesn't indicate any single tribe. It's a surname based on a place, like Hegazy or Najdi or Basyouni or Tantawy, which are all common surnames in Egypt. People with the surname Turaifi are most likely descended from immigrants from Palestine. The same is probably true of Al-Wasli. There are many places named Al-Wasly across the Middle East, and there's no Banu Wasl.

    Also FYI, Al-Atawla refers to a village called عرب الأطاولة in southern Egypt. (Ie: Arabs of Al-Atawla). This formula is very common throughout Egypt, but especially in the Nile Delta were there are dozens of villages named "Arabs of..." Some examples of villages with those names:

    نزلة عرب جهينة
    عرب الغديري
    عرب الرواشدة
    عرب العيايدة
    عرب العليقاط
    كفر العرب
    عرب الشعارة
    عرب الحصن
    عرب الرمل
    عرب أبو ذكري
    عرب درويش
    عرب الحمامشة
    عرب الشقاروة
    عرب الحصوة
    عرب مقابلة

    All of these villages are named "Arabs of xyz" and none of them appear in the Egypt FTDNA group, except for Rawashda which refers to Al-Rashid.

    So I count 70 Egyptians in the J1 list, ignoring the rest of the list for now. Of those I count 35 with tribal names, including Al-Wasli and Al-Ogby just to make you happy even though they're not really tribal names. There are 16 Al-Wasli samples in the list, so they make a huge difference. Again, there's no Wasly tribe, it's just a family name and they may or may not claim a tribal origin. An actual tribal name is Tarabeen, Howeitat, Al-Rashidi - ie: actual tribes. Names like Quraishi are not tribal names, they simply indicate Arab origin, which is absolutely typical in Egypt.

    So clearly the majority of the people in the Egypt FTDNA group are not tribal. There are some tribal names, which is exactly what you would expect given Egypt's demographics. Most people with tribal surnames in Egypt don't even know they're tribal names.
    Last edited by bunduqdari; 05-24-2021 at 08:43 PM.

  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunduqdari View Post
    First of all, you listed 8 names out of the entire Egyptian FTDNA group. How on earth is that most of the names?? I mean clearly you haven't proven your statement at all.

    Second, the single Howeiti guy is haplogroup B, not J. And there are several Al-Oqbis in the list. Two of them are haplogroup E and 1 is haplogroup T. 2 are J1 and one is J2. So hardly an explanation for the dominance of J1 in this list.

    Third, Al-Turaifi isn't a tribe. Turaif is a village in Palestine, but the surname itself doesn't indicate any single tribe. It's a surname based on a place, like Hegazy or Najdi or Basyouni or Tantawy, which are all common surnames in Egypt. People with the surname Turaifi are most likely descended from immigrants from Palestine. The same is probably true of Al-Wasli. There are many places named Al-Wasly across the Middle East, and there's no Banu Wasl.

    Also FYI, Al-Atawla refers to a village called عرب الأطاولة in southern Egypt. (Ie: Arabs of Al-Atawla). This formula is very common throughout Egypt, but especially in the Nile Delta were there are dozens of villages named "Arabs of..." Some examples of villages with those names:

    نزلة عرب جهينة
    عرب الغديري
    عرب الرواشدة
    عرب العيايدة
    عرب العليقاط
    كفر العرب
    عرب الشعارة
    عرب الحصن
    عرب الرمل
    عرب أبو ذكري
    عرب درويش
    عرب الحمامشة
    عرب الشقاروة
    عرب الحصوة
    عرب مقابلة

    All of these villages are named "Arabs of xyz" and none of them appear in the Egypt FTDNA group, except for Rawashda which refers to Al-Rashid.

    So I count 70 Egyptians in the J1 list, ignoring the rest of the list for now. Of those I count 35 with tribal names, including Al-Wasli and Al-Ogby just to make you happy even though they're not really tribal names. There are 16 Al-Wasli samples in the list, so they make a huge difference. Again, there's no Wasly tribe, it's just a family name and they may or may not claim a tribal origin. An actual tribal name is Tarabeen, Howeitat, Al-Rashidi - ie: actual tribes. Names like Quraishi are not tribal names, they simply indicate Arab origin, which is absolutely typical in Egypt.

    So clearly the majority of the people in the Egypt FTDNA group are not tribal. There are some tribal names, which is exactly what you would expect given Egypt's demographics. Most people with tribal surnames in Egypt don't even know they're tribal names.
    Ok so what's your point? That most Egyptians are j1?

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