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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1621
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    The Lech samples and those Denmark_BA samples are older than any other samples on this plot.
    Ph2ter, indeed true nevertheless you could call them 'real' (pre) proto-Germanics.....

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...ronze-age.html

    by the way they plot close to the migration age Germanics Deu_Ma.
    Last edited by Finn; 06-17-2021 at 07:02 PM.

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  3. #1622
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I happen to have solid science to back up my viewpoint of my clade's origin and not some soft bigotry. Let us start with the direct child of L1029, YP619. YP619* located in Hesse. Then its surviving descendant, YP444, with YP444* being located in Romania and northern Poland, then to YP443, with YP443* in a Slovakian. Then you have YP446, with its descendant YP28714 in a Volga German and a Finnish family (along with a Swede) being descended from a Hamburg merchant. Then you have my YP445, found in an Englishman, a German from Thuringia, a French Flemish man who sired the large Venter family of South Africa, and then me, the great-great-great-grandson of a man born in Feilbingert, Rhineland-Palatinate. Descendant YP729 is found in two Bavarians. So, unless our MRCA took a flight from Chernihiv (or maybe a dragon?) and parachuted into Poland, we were not part of the Kiev Culture. My clade originated in what is now Poland, and if you have a problem with the science, well, that's not my problem. Only two of the bigger L1029 clades look to have been in the people of the Kiev Culture, YP417 and YP263. I have no problem with being the descendant of a Germanized Slav, I do have a problem with people inventing geographical impossibilities.
    Being descended from YP263, I can't really get a handle on its origins, other than to say it had to be located in the Slavic homeland (TMRCA, 1800 years) because it's distributed among West, South and East Slavs, although it predominates among West Slavs, according to YFull. It seems there is agreement that the Kiev Culture was the first established Slavic culture. What preceded this is the mystery for me. I would not be shocked if L1029 originated in what is now Germany or Poland. We have to keep in mind there there were no such borders 2000 years ago. I also keep mentioning that the distance in question is not significant - in my opinion, equaling maybe 1500 km, and this over centuries as migrations and back migrations were quite possible and even likely.

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    Yeah YP4648 probably came to England with the Slavs via the Vikings. I’m like 80% sure of it.

    But I’m not convinced fully yet. Coldmountains, like you say a high percentage (not sure where you got the 95% from, unless that’s a guesstimate) of M458 came from Kiev derived lineages. I think this has been pretty clear considering the VK samples. At least IMO.

    That being said the aDNA shows M458/L1029 was present in Central Europe since Hallstatt times. That is not really debatable at this point (MX265). It can be argued that these ancient M458 samples didn’t contribute to modern/surviving lineages today, or that they were “one offs”… but we don’t k ow that for sure.

    In such a scenario where M458/L1029/L260 was present in Poland/Central Europe since 800ish BC, we would need to evaluate each subclade of these groups to determine if they fit the “Slavic” pattern. It will be hard to say with any certainty.

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  7. #1624
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  9. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    My clade originated in what is now Poland, and if you have a problem with the science, well, that's not my problem.
    Afaik...

    Generalissimo wrote:
    "- Bronze Age Poles are very similar to modern-day Poles
    - During the Iron Age there's a genetic shift, with some of the Wielbark sites producing somewhat unexpected results
    - However, some Wielbark and Przeworsk samples show continuity with the Bronze Age and later Medieval samples
    - Typically West Slavic R1a [i.e. R-L1029] subclades show up in upper class samples from the Medieval Period"

    Q: Any M458 at any stage in history?
    Artek: "Few dozens, I don't know an exact number of samples. M458 [i.e. R-L1029] appears in medieval [Polish] samples."

    Upcoming results from Great Moravia (elites buried in Uherské Hradiště-Sady)...
    Google translate:
    "Anthropological-genetic research from the cemetery in Uherské Hradiště-Sady was subjected to 75 skeletal remains, from which 65 DNA profiles could be extracted, which could be used for comparative analyzes. Of these, the Y haplotype was determined in 28 individuals. These were mostly haplogroups R1a [i.e. R-L1029] and R1b (Slavic and Celtic-Germanic), ie common for this geographical location. In two cases, there were exceptions, leading probably to Tajikistan, or the southern regions of mountainous Central Asia, perhaps as far as China."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-18-2021 at 06:26 AM.

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  11. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    Yeah YP4648 probably came to England with the Slavs via the Vikings. I’m like 80% sure of it.

    But I’m not convinced fully yet. Coldmountains, like you say a high percentage (not sure where you got the 95% from, unless that’s a guesstimate) of M458 came from Kiev derived lineages. I think this has been pretty clear considering the VK samples. At least IMO.

    That being said the aDNA shows M458/L1029 was present in Central Europe since Hallstatt times. That is not really debatable at this point (MX265). It can be argued that these ancient M458 samples didn’t contribute to modern/surviving lineages today, or that they were “one offs”… but we don’t k ow that for sure.

    In such a scenario where M458/L1029/L260 was present in Poland/Central Europe since 800ish BC, we would need to evaluate each subclade of these groups to determine if they fit the “Slavic” pattern. It will be hard to say with any certainty.
    R-PF6155 and M458 have not many basal clades today and even if some of the basal clades pop up in far away places like Italy or Finnland we can not exclude that it not came in the medieval period with Slavs or some Central Europeans. Slavic Y-DNA is today almost everywhere in non-Slavic Europe and bordering regions of Asia (Caucasus, Anatolia, even West Asia) present in low frequencies. Afaik Poland indeed seems to have the most basal M458 clades but we need more ancient DNA to prove or disprove theories of the origin of M458 and L1029 for now. Outliners and rumors are in my eyes not proving or disproving much at this point. Way or another the hypothetical M458 group living outside of Proto-Balto-Slavs in Central Europe was either a very small group hence the rare presence of M458 in ancient DNA (no M458 in Tollense, no M458 among migration period Germanics, no M458 in Balkan_BA/Balkan_IA, ...) and low number of basal M458 clades west of Poland or it was not so far in the west and only slightly west of Proto-Balto-Slavs hence it being at some early point assimilated by Pre/Proto-Slavs (Deu_Singen is shifted towards Balt_BA compared to locals) with some M458 groups being under the influence of La Tčne/Halstatt cultures.

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  13. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Of 9 M458 Albanians at Yfull only one is under a basal branch (TMRCA 1000 B.C) and the other 8 are under super young branches with TMRCA around 500-1000 A.D so exactly in the period of Slavic migration. Some of them even fall under a branch with Krakauer Berg samples. But even if we find more basal M458 samples in Albania it is far more likely to come with Slavs than to be linked to Proto-Albanians. Ancient dna also pretty much points to that. And even if we find basal M458 in the ancient Balkan (what i honestly dont think except for outliners and people bordering Central/East Europe) these clades will be likely extinct or super rare today after all the founder effects and migrations.

    95+% of modern day M458 was spread by Slavs (even if it was picked up from non-Balto-Slavs before) but having distant Slavic or "eastern" ancestors seems to be an uncomfortable idea for some people.
    Does anything even suggest M458 was picked up from non-Balto-Slavs before?

  14. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Does anything even suggest M458 was picked up from non-Balto-Slavs before?
    The lack of it in Balt_BA and Balt_IA, for now, is a good argument against a Proto-Balto-Slavic origin. Also modern-day Baltic M458 is afaik under very young branches shared with Slavs (TMRCA around 500-1000 A.D) unlike for example generally accepted Proto/Para-Balto-Slavic Z92 and CTS1211 which have basal Baltic clades and were also found in ancient DNA from the Baltics. Technically it could be that Proto-Balto-Slavic M458 not participated in migration northwards and stayed in Belarus but M458 is in terms of phylogeny also quite distant to Z92 and CTS1211, which are unlike M458 both under R1a-Z280. So M458 is in terms of phylogeny as much as distant to Proto/Para-Balto-Slavic Z92/CTS1211 as it is to Indo-Iranian R-YP4858 or Scandinavian R-Z284. This all not yet excludes a Proto-Balto-Slavic origin but makes it likely M458 was not Balto-Slavic speaking in the Bronze Age. But where exactly M458 was present in the Bronze Age is impossible to say for now i prefer a scenario where it was present somewhere between Central Poland and Belarus just slightly west of Proto-Balto-Slavs closer to Belarus. It seemingly was not a very numerous group and only with Slavs we see M458 in masses before it are just outliners in ancient dna.

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  16. #1629
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    As the Slavs stop burning their dead, large amounts of M458 appear. It's so easy!

  17. #1630
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    Krakauer Berg in Arza's analysis:

    https://slavicorigins.blogspot.com/2...-and-berg.html

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