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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    The lack of it in Balt_BA and Balt_IA, for now, is a good argument against a Proto-Balto-Slavic origin. Also modern-day Baltic M458 is afaik under very young branches shared with Slavs (TMRCA around 500-1000 A.D) unlike for example generally accepted Proto/Para-Balto-Slavic Z92 and CTS1211 which have basal Baltic clades and were also found in ancient DNA from the Baltics. Technically it could be that Proto-Balto-Slavic M458 not participated in migration northwards and stayed in Belarus but M458 is in terms of phylogeny also quite distant to Z92 and CTS1211, which are unlike M458 both under R1a-Z280. So M458 is in terms of phylogeny as much as distant to Proto/Para-Balto-Slavic Z92/CTS1211 as it is to Indo-Iranian R-YP4858 or Scandinavian R-Z284. This all not yet excludes a Proto-Balto-Slavic origin but makes it likely M458 was not Balto-Slavic speaking in the Bronze Age. But where exactly M458 was present in the Bronze Age is impossible to say for now i prefer a scenario where it was present somewhere between Central Poland and Belarus just slightly west of Proto-Balto-Slavs closer to Belarus. It seemingly was not a very numerous group and only with Slavs we see M458 in masses before it are just outliners in ancient dna.
    Interesting. What would the ethnic identity of those M458 tribes have been if they were between Central Poland and Belarus. Some CW descendant language that died out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Interesting. What would the ethnic identity of those M458 tribes have been if they were between Central Poland and Belarus. Some CW descendant language that died out?
    Probably some group similar to POL_EBA in the Bronze Age, which was also not Balto-Slavic for sure, but close to where Proto-Balto-Slavs formed. M458 is for sure CWC derived just like all other Balto-Slavic R1a today, what makes an origin of Balto-Slavs in BA Hungary/Balkan like some propose super unlikely in my eyes. Or there was some linguistic replacement without replacing any Y-DNA, which really is not what we see in ancient DNA of this period so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    As the Slavs stop burning their dead, large amounts of M458 appear. It's so easy!
    But these Y-DNA lines initially came from somewhere...

    "The Czechs [Slavs], if we imagine them as an organized group of men occupying an area, came to our territory [Czechia] sometime in the late 5th or 6th century."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Probably some group similar to POL_EBA in the Bronze Age, which was also not Balto-Slavic for sure, but close to where Proto-Balto-Slavs formed. M458 is for sure CWC derived just like all other Balto-Slavic R1a today, what makes an origin of Balto-Slavs in BA Hungary/Balkan like some propose super unlikely in my eyes. Or there was some linguistic replacement without replacing any Y-DNA, which really is not what we see in ancient DNA of this period so far.
    Can we rule out M458 being some sort of minor Celto-Germanic lineage (which we know a lot of people are hinging their hopes on)?

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    Waldemar, the M458 will be rather local, because it in the Czechia is already in the La Tene culture.

    On the other hand, Benes' research showed that the closer to the Polish border, the more M458.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Can we rule out M458 being some sort of minor Celto-Germanic lineage (which we know a lot of people are hinging their hopes on)?
    Only in the most eastern periphery of the Celtic/Germanic zone. I mean even Deu_Singen from SW Germany with M458 has some kind of shift towards Balt_BA/AV2 and he definitely was not a local. The rumoured L1029 from La Tene Czechia is from a site that was almost entirely R1b afaik so he was at least in terms of Y-DNA again an outliner. Also would not be surprised if he is a mislabeled later sample like Bell_Beaker_Cze_o (likely medieval Slavic) and even Cze_Early_Slav which was first classified as Bell Beaker. But assuming he is not misdated one lone sample in a community dominated by other Y-DNA and carrying a rare lineage is not proving much in my eyes. You need a site with several M458 samples lacking a Balt_BA/AV2-shift to exclude that M458 has not arrived somewhere from the East. Also none of the many migration period samples from Germanic and Central European people has shown any M458 so far and actually, we have a lot of Germanic samples from this period from Central Europe. So the hypothetical M458 tribes of Central Europe either became extinct or a small almost invisible minority before the arrival of Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, the M458 will be rather local, because it in the Czechia is already in the La Tene culture.
    If we will see any M458 in Iron Age Czechia (I'm doubtful), I suspect that these will be dead-end lineages.

    Unlike Great Moravian (I-Y3120, R-M458 and R-Z280) ones...


    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-18-2021 at 08:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    If we will see any M458 in Iron Age Czechia (I'm doubtful), I suspect that these will be dead-end lineages.
    I wouldn't be sure about that, but its possible some of them were just not as successful and are therefore not as widespread. Just consider the current status of test density in Central Europe. Its pretty bad and lineages which are not fairly widespread could simply lurk under the radar and will keep doing so for many years to come, unless single ones pop up randomly.
    In the end, a lot of the older strata will have left some descendents, but just a few, a handful, whereas the major migrations and founder effects dominate the scene. So we just can't say for sure up to the point of high resolution testing on a broad scale.

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    Waldemar, from the Czech La Tene, is to be specifically L1029. As Balanowski says: Slavs often spread on a similar genetic basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, from the Czech La Tene, is to be specifically L1029.
    And apparently Scandinavian-like (non-Slavic-like) autosomally. We'll see...
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-18-2021 at 09:07 AM.

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