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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1701
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    is this article outdated?
    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_2.htm#2

    It says that Ipotesti-Candesti and Avaro-Slavs have little to no archaeological connection to Prague, only to Korchak and Penkovka.

    "So far no definite find has been made on the territory of Yugoslavia of the Prague type, which would indicate a movement from Central Europe."

    ...
    Prague type is found in Slovenia in Prekmurje and in Croatia in Međimurje, so this is not anymore true.
     
    All simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps and calculations I ask for a donation via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account

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  3. #1702
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    is this article outdated?
    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_2.htm#2

    It says that Ipotesti-Candesti and Avaro-Slavs have little to no archaeological connection to Prague, only to Korchak and Penkovka.

    "So far no definite find has been made on the territory of Yugoslavia of the Prague type, which would indicate a movement from Central Europe."




    These haplogroups are too old to be analyzed this way. You can't simply look at this and say Bulgarians come from Poland.

    R-M458 in south Slavs is mostly the "East Slavic" R-YP417, with close matches among east Slavs. Only Croats and Slovenians seem to have more of the "West Slavic" L260 instead, but maybe with deeper testing even this one turns out to be some subclade specific to East Slavs.

    It doesn't matter that R-M458 higher in Bulgarians and lower elsewhere, that could be the result of founder effect when Slavs settled, or even later medieval demographic changes.

    It's the same with Z17855 and PH908, both are found from Bosnia to Moldavia and the Black Sea coast, just one had more succes in the western Balkans and other in the Eastern.
    Well, Korchak is usually described as a part of the bigger Prague-Korchak complex but even if we look at it only as of Korchak contribution and without Prague, it's still not as simplistic as you've put it and Penkovka derived only.

    I didn't say anything about Bulgarians coming from Poland. I only said that this frequency of the Slavic haplogroups looks more similar to the West Slavic one and different than the Serbs, Croat, Slovenes, and even though superficially, it still makes my point valid and it's a clear evidence of different origins from among the early wider Slavic body.

    By the way, as Michal said, can you provide evidence that YP417 is the only subclade of M458 among the Bulgarians and Macedonians?
    I'm not talking about all the South Slavs because that's the point I'm making all along, that the South Slavs don't have exactly the same origin from exactly the same early Slavic tribes.
    That's even more evident if going by linguistic perspective for which is even more obvious that the early Slavs which contributed in the origins of the South Slavs weren't of the same cultural groups and tribes.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  5. #1703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    Isn't it though?
    I just don't know any data that would show it, so I would like to see the calculations supporting this conclusion. Maybe when counting only L1209, this would be more or less correct (although I still have some doubts), but we have also a significant fraction corresponding to L260 (YP1337), mostly among the South-Western Slavs, although even among the Bulgarians subclade L260 seems to represent about 15-20% of all M458 (as suggested by the data from Karachanak et al., 2013).
    Last edited by Michał; 06-19-2021 at 02:41 PM.

  6. #1704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I just don't know any data that would show it, so I would like to see the calculations supporting this conclusion. Maybe when counting only L1209, this would be more or less correct (although I still have some doubts), but we have also a significant fraction corresponding too L260 (YP1337), mostly among the South-Western Slavs, and even among the Bulgarians subclade L260 seems to represent about 15-20% of all M458 (as suggested by the data from Karachanak et al., 2013).
    Ohhh ok. I thought you meant L1029 specifically but more broadly M458.

    Oh wow I didn't know 15-20% of Bulgarian M458 was L260. May not be significant numbers wise when compared to all haplogroups, but that's more than I have seen.

    I only go off project samples I have seen. Seems Serbs are mostly YP417, A11460. The few Bulgarian and Macedonian ones I saw were YP417 and YP263. And Croatians I have seen L260 and YP417.

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  8. #1705
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Very surprising Baltic R1a results!
    M458 > Z92 in Balts. M458 >> Z92 in Latvians. When in Russia Z92 > M458.

    Maybe M458 is not specifically Slavic? Or it is the sample?
    Yeah, that's what cought my eye as well especially since I have seen some Eupedia maps about M458 frequency in Europe and I remember it was very low among the Balts.

    As for the data here, I know about this blogspot since few years now. I can tell you that the Macedonian samples come from scientific studies. I believe that's the case with the other samples...
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  9. #1706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Yeah, that's what cought my eye as well especially since I have seen some Eupedia maps about M458 frequency in Europe and I remember it was very low among the Balts.

    As for the data here, I know about this blogspot since few years now. I can tell you that the Macedonian samples come from scientific studies. I believe that's the case with the other samples...
    I think M458 in Balts is mostly from Slavs. Wouldn't be surprised if the source in Balts came from Poland and Belarus migration paths. Their clades all seem quite young among Balts.

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  11. #1707
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    Waldemar

    "Conversely, the archaeological assemblages attributed to the Slavs (Sclavenes) in southern and eastern Romania are earlier than any in central Ukraine, the Middle Dnieper region, or any other part of Eastern Europe."

    https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9...3/BP000005.xml

  12. #1708
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar

    "Conversely, the archaeological assemblages attributed to the Slavs (Sclavenes) in southern and eastern Romania are earlier than any in central Ukraine, the Middle Dnieper region, or any other part of Eastern Europe."

    https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9...3/BP000005.xml
    How is Curtas theory of Slavs orginating in the Danube region consistent with your views that Slavs originate in Sorbia, Pomerania and Poland. Or do you think Slavs migrated to Poland, Czechia, Romania and Hungary without even setting a foot in East Europe? You need to chose one homeland theory and not just throw in many each other excluding origin theories. Just because you lump together many origin theories (Slavs from Wielbark, Slavs from Tollense, Slavs from Romania, Slavs from Hungary_IA, Slavs from Czechia, Slavs from Unetice...) they not become more logical. At least the other opponents of the Kiev Culture theory have one consistent theory like Slavs orginating from the North Carpathians .

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  14. #1709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    Ohhh ok. I thought you meant L1029 specifically but more broadly M458.

    Oh wow I didn't know 15-20% of Bulgarian M458 was L260. May not be significant numbers wise when compared to all haplogroups, but that's more than I have seen.

    I only go off project samples I have seen. Seems Serbs are mostly YP417, A11460. The few Bulgarian and Macedonian ones I saw were YP417 and YP263. And Croatians I have seen L260 and YP417.
    Looking at the Bulgarian DNA project, there are eight people with deeper resolution under M458. Five are YP417, two are YP263 and one L260. Percentage wise, YP417(62.5%), YP263(25%) and L260(12.5%).
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  16. #1710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Korchak is quite commonly considered to be the Early (or Ukrainian) phase of the Prague culture, although some researchers discriminate between these two cultures/populations.
    The article goes into more detail, in Romania, Hungary, former Yugoslavia we find Luka Raykovetskaya type pottery (specific to Korchak/Ukraine) and ornaments of the Martynovka type (specific to Penkovka/Ukraine)
    So there is a specific similarity just to Korchak, not the whole Prague-Korchak.

    It makes sense geographically as well, Ipotesti-Candesti starts in northern Moldova and then gradually spreads southwards. It makes the most sense that this was a group of Slavs from Ukraine which decided to go south, unless there are some very specific parallels to areas further west.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Where is this information coming from? While I agree that YP417 is present among the Southern Slavs, I doubt it is the dominant M458 subclade in the Balkan region.
    Serbian DNA project:
    https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/

    166 M458:
    3.61% L260
    9.64% undetermined
    13.25% R-A11460
    28.31% L1029-undetermined
    45.18% L1029-YP417 (7 R-YP6047, the rest undetermined)

    Bosniak DNA Project:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4456171879&z=8

    40 M458
    2.5% undetermined
    2.5% YP515 (YP515-YP4120-Y23108*)
    15% L260 (Y2905, Y2905-BY25698*, Y2905 -BY2569)
    5% L1029-undetermined
    75% L1029-YP417 (5 R-YP6047, 1 YP418>YP1013 the rest undetermined)

    Bulgarians + 1 Macedonian from FTDNA
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...na/dna-results

    17 m458
    35.29% CTS11962>L1029 Undetermined
    29.41% L1029>YP417>YP418
    11.76% L1029>BY30007>YP263
    5.88% A11460
    5.88% M458 Undetermined
    5.88% CTS11962 Undetermined
    5.88% L260>YP1337-x

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