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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Yeah, that's what cought my eye as well especially since I have seen some Eupedia maps about M458 frequency in Europe and I remember it was very low among the Balts.

    As for the data here, I know about this blogspot since few years now. I can tell you that the Macedonian samples come from scientific studies. I believe that's the case with the other samples...
    Could you link those studies?

    Vayda's blog is mostly from FTDNA project data:
    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/
    The study was based on a database – the results of YDNA tests in the FTDNA R1a-Project
    Sources: Eupedia (R1a frequency [%]); FTDNA R1a-Project (R1a samples).; https://dnk.poreklo.rs (additional R1a samples for Serbians - 358)
    I'm not aware of a study which did a large scale testing of R1a subclades.
    Only the 2 Underhill Studies which tested no deeper than M458, Z280 and Z93.

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  3. #1712
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    Serbian DNA project:
    https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/

    166 M458:
    3.61% L260
    9.64% undetermined
    13.25% R-A11460
    28.31% L1029-undetermined
    45.18% L1029-YP417 (7 R-YP6047, the rest undetermined)
    One problem with the Serbian data from poreklo is that I am not sure the sampling is random. My experience with clade Z280 (L1280) tells me that it is quite common among the Serbs (including the Bosnian Serbs) to test people belonging to the same Slava which results in very strong over-representation of selected subclades. Are you sure this is not the case with the Serbian YP417?

    When looking at the Serbian FTDNA project, I see as many A11460 members (4) as those belonging to L1029 (ie. only 4, including 3 confirmed as YP417), although as a non-member I don't have access to the full list.
    Last edited by Michał; 06-19-2021 at 03:44 PM.

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  5. #1713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    One problem with the Serbian data from poreklo is that I am not sure the sampling is random. My experience with clade Z280 (L1280) tells me that it is quite common among the Serbs (including the Bosnian Serbs) to test people belonging to the same Slava which results in very strong over-representation of selected subclades. Are you sure this is not the case with the Serbian YP417?
    It's only L1280 as far as I know, because a member of that haplogroup offered free testing for potential relatives.
    When they publish statsictics, L1280 is taken out, and statistics are similar to those from anonymous studies.

    Especially YP417 seems to have an equal spread from Eastern Serbia all the way to ethnic Serbs from Croatia, and it's strong in neighbouring ethnicities as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    When looking at the Serbian FTDNA project, I see as many A11460 members (4) as those belonging to L1029 (ie. only 4, including 3 confirmed as YP417), although as a non-member I don't have access to the full list.
    The results are sorted alphabetically by default. You can sort by haplogroup by clicking on the "СНП" column name, and then browse pages at the bottom.

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  7. #1714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    One problem with the Serbian data from poreklo is that I am not sure the sampling is random. My experience with clade Z280 (L1280) tells me that it is quite common among the Serbs (including the Bosnian Serbs) to test people belonging to the same Slava which results in very strong over-representation of selected subclades. Are you sure this is not the case with the Serbian YP417?

    When looking at the Serbian FTDNA project, I see as many A11460 members (4) as those belonging to L1029 (ie. only 4, including 3 confirmed as YP417), although as a non-member I don't have access to the full list.
    They tend to post results on their forum. Both project and consumer results from 23andme. Z280 does seem to still dominate in comparison to M458. I'm not sure if the results are over representation though. They usually post the Slava with results. Not sure what a Slava is but I imagine I can see which are random or not.

  8. #1715
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    Could you link those studies?

    Vayda's blog is mostly from FTDNA project data:
    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/



    I'm not aware of a study which did a large scale testing of R1a subclades.
    Only the 2 Underhill Studies which tested no deeper than M458, Z280 and Z93.
    I should have said I believe that's the case because the frequency of I-Y3120 is similar to the percentage I got from the scientific studies(23-24%). Plus in order to calculate percentage he should have total number of Macedonians on FTDNA which in November 2017 when he did this analysis was quite difficult to obtain since there was no Bloc Tree as of yet.

    Anyway, it's amazingly similar to what I did with scientific studies.

    Yes, no deeper testing for R-M198 but still, there is room for prediction and that is what Vayda probably did because I'm sure he couldn't rely only on deeper tested samples.

    Well, I guess you owe me evidence now for YP417 being the only subclade of M458 among the South Slavs...
    Last edited by Aspar; 06-19-2021 at 04:06 PM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  9. #1716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    They tend to post results on their forum. Both project and consumer results from 23andme. Z280 does seem to still dominate in comparison to M458. I'm not sure if the results are over representation though. They usually post the Slava with results. Not sure what a Slava is but I imagine I can see which are random or not.
    Slava is a family patron saint inherited from father to son, sometimes they remained more stable than surnames, or are older than permanent surnames in some areas, that's why they are used there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava

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  11. #1717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I should have said I believe that's the case because the frequency of I-Y3120 is similar to the percentage I got from the scientific studies(23-24%). Plus in order to calculate percentage he should have total number of Macedonians on FTDNA which in November 2017 when he did this analysis was quite difficult to obtain since there was no Bloc Tree as of yet.

    Anyway, it's amazingly similar to what I did with scientific studies.

    Yes, no deeper testing for R-M198 but still, there is room for prediction and that is what Vayda probably did because I'm sure he couldn't rely only on deeper tested samples.
    He did rely only on deeper tested samples, read his text I linked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Well, I guess you owe me evidence now for YP417 being the only subclade of M458 among the South Slavs...
    I said mostly, not only, and I did prove it.

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  13. #1718
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    Coldmountains, I'll repeat again:

    I am simply looking for the Proto-Slavic homeland in the scientific data. Contrary to many colleagues who have found it homeland long ago and are only now looking for scientific data confirming this finding.

    The combined linguistic, genetic and archaeological data exclude the Slavic homeland on Pripyat, so for this reason alone, I do not see this homeland there. However, I have never concealed it that the Slavic homeland in the Carpathian region seems most likely to me, which is supported by Arza and many scientists.

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  15. #1719
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    However, I have never concealed it that the Slavic homeland in the Carpathian region seems most likely to me, which is supported by Arza and many scientists.
    Wait a moment, weren't that you who have recently stated here that the linguistic arguments are most important and in this respect you trust Babik who rejected the Subcarpathian homeland of the Slavs based on the linguistic data?

    In case you are going to replace the Polish-Ukrainian Subcarpathian homeland with Slovakia, could you please tell us which linguistic analysis points to the Slavic homeland in Slovakia and which particular Iron Age/Roman Times culture would you identify with the Proto-Slavs?

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  17. #1720
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