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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    ^^ There's one aDNA sample from Crimean "Ostrogoth" with ACD - KER_1 (Kerch on the Crimea, 256–401 cal AD).

    Distance to: Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
    0.04000634 Turkish_B
    0.04539442 Turkish_Istanbul
    0.04723645 Greek_Crete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Early Wielbark males in inhumation graves were Swedish-like. They didn't mix with the locals for about 200 years (between c. 100-300 AD). I suspect that isotopic data from Kowalewko will confirm that male warriors were not local, i.e. forces were periodically exchanged. Then they started to mix with the local populations living east of the Vistula and with the Black Sea steppe populations.
    So what you are saying is that these Gothic warriors, or soldiers, were garrisoned in the Vistula River region for months or more then rotated out. They did not mix with the local population until a more substantial migration of Goths crossed the Baltic to begin their migration to the Black Sea area. At that time, some of the locals went with the Goths and inter mixed, or stayed behind - after inter mixing. By the way, a supposition that the early Gothic soldiers did no mix with the locals is not far fetched. There are other historical situations where the garrisoned soldiers would keep to themselves and not routinely fraternize with the locals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    So what you are saying is that these Gothic warriors, or soldiers, were garrisoned in the Vistula River region for months or more then rotated out. They did not mix with the local population until a more substantial migration of Goths crossed the Baltic to begin their migration to the Black Sea area. At that time, some of the locals went with the Goths and inter mixed, or stayed behind - after inter mixing. By the way, a supposition that the early Gothic soldiers did no mix with the locals is not far fetched. There are other historical situations where the garrisoned soldiers would keep to themselves and not routinely fraternize with the locals.
    Or the mixed offspring lived elsewhere snd had a different social role, was absent from the sampled burials. The only fact we know is that the males were Scandinavian, but most females at that place not, and that many of the Northern males moved elsewhere and New ones took their place.
    Pretty much like an early Viking outpost at some strategically important position with merchants and guards which did their business and left afterwards, but the post was not given up and just the "garrison" exchanged regularly.
    Probably even seasonally?

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    If the era is right (mid to late 3rd century, to early 4th century), it seems that the Goth migration correlates with the growth of the 3 y-dna clades associated with the Slavs. Maybe this has something to do with things. By the way, the historical annals record that the Goths defeated the "very numerous" Venethi in the mid to late 4th century. The Roman (Byzantine) historians tried to classify the Venethi. They state that the Venethi spoke neither Germanic or Sarmatian. If the Venethi were not some sort of pra-Slavic tribe, mind you - not the only one, then what other tribe could they have been? What other tribes were in the area between the Germanics and Peucini, as the Byzantine historians testify? Perhaps the Dacians, although wouldn't the Byzantine historians have been familiar with the Dacian language? Is it possible that the core of the pra-Slavic group was Kyiv, yet there were similar groups in the adjacent areas, who then were incorporated rather easily into the Slavic ethnogenesis a few centuries later?
    Last edited by leonardo; 08-04-2021 at 12:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    If the era is right (mid to late 3rd century), it seems that the Goth migration correlates with the growth of the 3 y-dna clades associated with the Slavs. Maybe this has something to do with things. By the way, the historical annals record that the Goths defeated the "very numerous" Venethi in the mid to late 4th century. The Roman (Byzantine) historians tried to classify the Venethi. They state that the Venethi spoke neither Germanic or Sarmatian. If the Venethi were not some sort of pra-Slavic tribe, mind you - not the only one, then what other tribe could they have been? What other tribes were in the area between the Germanics and Peucini, as the Byzantine historians testify? Perhaps the Dacians, although wouldn't the Byzantine historians have been familiar with the Dacian language? Is it possible that the core of the pra-Slavic group was Kyiv, yet there were similar groups in the adjacent areas, who then were incorporated rather easily into the Slavic ethnogenesis a few centuries later?
    I think its very likely that the Lusatian-related people were sandwiched between Germanics and Slavs. Just like the central German Hallstatt groups were sandwhiched and annihilated by Jastorf Germanics and La Tene Celts.
    This was a win-win situation for those breaking the middle guy up and it happened often enough in history.
    The Lusatian-related people have been already weakened by the Scythian and Celtic incursions and were only a shadow of their former self, so they were easy prey and might even have asked for protection from outside!

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  11. #2946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    ^^ There's one aDNA sample from Crimean "Ostrogoth" with ACD - KER_1 (Kerch on the Crimea, 256–401 cal AD).

    Distance to: Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
    0.04000634 Turkish_B
    0.04539442 Turkish_Istanbul
    0.04723645 Greek_Crete
    Below is how the site was described. In the paper they wrote that the skull was associated with "Ostrogothic material". Maybe they mean the diadem with eagle heads, but this individual wasn't the wearer of the diadem (although he was found in the same burial chamber of the wearer). How likely is it that he at least spoke Ostrogothic? I'd bet he was an native Greek of Pantikápaion.

    A find which is especially interesting and important to the context of our samples, is that of an
    artificially deformed skull from antique Pantikapaion, today’s Kerch in Crimea. As very few
    details about the find’s history of discovery have been published so far, we will briefly
    describe it here:
    The skull was discovered around 1900 in a burial chamber at Pantikapaion’s Mithridates hill
    and reached the Collection of the Romano-Germanic Museum in Cologne on ways that are
    best described as adventurous. Pantikapaion (Greek: Παντικάπαιον; Latin: Panticapaeum) is recognized as a Greek-Milesian colony that was established in the 6th century BC at the western shores of the Cimmerian Bosporus. Later, Pantikapaion gained importance as capital of the Bosporan Kingdom. In its golden period the city reached from the port at the road coming from Kerch, which connects the Black Sea to the Sea of Azov, up to the Acropolis on the Mithridates hill (25).
    In Late Antique times the city’s importance ceased and the settlement structure changed.
    Under King Rheskuporis VI. (reign: 314/15-341/42) Pantikapaion’s mintage came to an end;
    yet, in his regency the city became newly fortified. Around the middle of the 4th century AD
    Gothic Tetraxits established their rule (26) before it was overtaken by the Huns in the
    seventies of the same century (27, 28). After they had destroyed the city to an unclear extent,
    the Huns and their allies were probably also aware of its strategically important location. In
    534 Emperor Justinian I. conquered Pantikapaion, which was still important, and integrated it
    into the Byzantine area of authority. The city was also renamed “Bosporus” (Procop, De
    Aedif. III, 7; Bell. Pers. I, 12; bell. Goth. IV, 5). After roughly one generation the Byzantine
    rule ended in 576 when Angai, a prince of the Utigurs, conquered the city. It is assumed that more than 2,000 graves were uncovered at and around the Mithridates hill
    and in the district of Glinisce. Yet, no exact inventories of the finds were passed on. Only
    exceptional finds were recognized, such as the “Kerch vases” which today are very well-

    known in the community of antiquarians (29, 30), and the terracotta which were discovered
    there (31–33). Burial chambers that were described as catacomb graves were mainly laid out
    at the northern side of the Mithridates hill. Some of these graves were situated within the city
    boundaries of the Classic Epoch. The burial chambers were laid out during the Bosporan
    Kingdom and were used until Late Antique times. Some burial chambers that were painted or
    otherwise decorated were published by Rostovtsev (34). Around 1900 (the exact time is unknown) a burial chamber containing several inhumation
    burials was discovered and attracted attention due to the find of a diadem with multi-colored
    stones. It was manufactured from three golden plates and its superelevated front plate
    resembles the form of two eagle heads. The diadem that is decorated with more than 250
    individually set almandines and green glass (resembling the eyes of the eagle heads) can be
    dated to around 400 AD or into the first half of the 5th century AD (35–39). Such golden
    diadems with precious stone inlays are typically found in female burials of the Hunnic elite (36, 39–44). According to Anke (45) the custom of wearing such diadems in the 4th/5th
    century AD may be seen as a stimulus from the Sarmatian cultural sphere. The diadem and an artificially deformed skull from the same burial chamber which was not
    the skull of the diadem’s wearer reached the Museum’s collection via detours. Both are still
    held there today. It remains without doubt that both the diadem and the skull were discovered
    within the same burial chamber around 1900. From today’s perspective it is very unfortunate
    that only the exceptional finds, diadem and artificially deformed skull, were paid attention to
    while the remaining grave inventory including several skeletons was not even properly
    documented. In 2009 Dr. Anja Staskiewicz re-examined the skull from Kerch (Fig. S3) at the State Collection for Anthropology and Palaeoanatomy. The results of this re-examination are briefly summarized here: As obvious in Fig. S3, the calvarium of the skull (labeled 43,95) is mounted to a wire rack that is attached to the occiput. A mandible is attached to the skull with a wire on both sides
    and is labeled “[belonging] to 43,95”. Yet, doubts remain whether the mandible originally belonged to the skull. Due to missing mandibular condyles it was impossible to test how well these fit into the respective jaw sockets. Nevertheless the mandible seems less robust and masculine than the skull. It is furthermore conspicuous that 11 teeth are present in the mandible and most probably no tooth was intravitally lost, while not a single tooth was present in the maxilla and at least seven of these were intravitally lost. Almost all features relevant for sex estimation of the calvarium point to a male individual due
    to their extreme robusticity (relevant criteria for sex estimation were taken from Herrmann et
    al. (46)). Additionally, age at death was roughly estimated by the degree of ossification of
    cranial sutures (relevant criteria were also taken from Herrmann et al. (46)). Under normal
    conditions the degree of ossification indicates a higher, possibly (late) mature age of ca. 50 to
    60 years. Such an age-at-death would also be in accordance with the many intravital maxillary
    tooth losses. For the genetic analyses presented here, a petrous bone from the calvarium was sampled.
    Radiocarbon dating from a piece of the same petrous bone yielded an age of 256 – 401 cal
    AD (1709 ± 23 years).

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  13. #2947
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think its very likely that the Lusatian-related people were sandwiched between Germanics and Slavs. Just like the central German Hallstatt groups were sandwhiched and annihilated by Jastorf Germanics and La Tene Celts.
    This was a win-win situation for those breaking the middle guy up and it happened often enough in history.
    The Lusatian-related people have been already weakened by the Scythian and Celtic incursions and were only a shadow of their former self, so they were easy prey and might even have asked for protection from outside!
    And by the time frame in question the Lusatian Culture had morphed into the Przeworsk Culture. As this article from Wikipedia indicates, the Przeworsk Culture was likely multi ethnic. I know it has been associated with the Vandals, but I have not read that the Vandals were ever situated in the area of SE Poland, Moravia, western Ukraine, etc. I believe when the Vandals did migrate into the Roman world they settled briefly in Pannonia, but I believe their route there was more of one through Silesia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    And by the time frame in question the Lusatian Culture had morphed into the Przeworsk Culture. As this article from Wikipedia indicates, the Przeworsk Culture was likely multi ethnic. I know it has been associated with the Vandals, but I have not read that the Vandals were ever situated in the area of SE Poland, Moravia, western Ukraine, etc. I believe when the Vandals did migrate into the Roman world they settled briefly in Pannonia, but I believe their route there was more of one through Silesia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture
    Actually the Wikipedia article says this about the eastern portion of the Przeworsk Culture: "To the east, the Przeworsk culture is associated with the Zarubintsy culture in what is now northern Ukraine and southern Belarus, and the early Slavic peoples. Later in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, much of this eastern area was subsequently absorbed by the Wielbark culture and Chernyakhov culture.[3]" This parallels what Waldemar has been positing.

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  17. #2949
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    Riverman, and in "the shadow of their former self", the Slavic paternal lines dynamically developed.

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  19. #2950
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    Are they planning to analyse auDNA and Y-DNA from these burials in Podersdorf am See - https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-020-01102-5?



    For example HD43.2 belongs to https://yfull.com/mtree/U5a1b1c1/
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-05-2021 at 09:50 AM.

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