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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    You are right. But the nature of G25 is such that it is not possible to know the exact ancestry of anyone. You can get the same result with different sets of kits.
    But my result is plausible and your umap only tells you that this person is in majority of the Slavic ancestry.
    When we try to compose his g25 values from available genetic profiles it is obvious that we can't get his values without Germanic components. Your umap can't tell you anything about this fact.
    The majority of algorithms can only estimate the majority component, as you know this is called 'classification'.
    In the case of multivariate data this problem is already hard to solve; and with overlapping and imbalanced clusters it is nearly impossible.
    So I consider "only successful in classifying the main component" as a succes.
    You are right that it is not possible to reconstruct the G25 values from the available genetic profiles. We just don't have balanced data of all the ancestors.
    Moreover some of the G25 coordinates are irrelevant for Europeans samples. And the so-called 'scaling' will probably also not be helpful in reconstruction of target profiles.

    If I understand you correctly, you think it is plausible that there is 30% German ancestry in POH44.
    I fear that you cannot convince me of this plausibility, so we can leave at this. I hope I did not somehow hurt your feelings.

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  3. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Others, from Migration:2 to Migration:12 are Kowalewko samples.
    Do you or does anyone know a gender of each sample?
    Minuć u tumanie stahodździ,
    I stal sparachnieje ŭščent,
    A my tut byli, i my tut budziem,
    Pakul isnuje hety śviet.

  4. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's probably the highest frequency of G2 in that region since Neolithic times found so far afaik. Could they be closely related?
    One needs to check if the results exclude the possibility that they all belong to the same clade G2a-Y3101 (and potentially to a younger subclade associated with the same clan/family).

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  6. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    One needs to check if the results exclude the possibility that they all belong to the same clade G2a-Y3101 (and potentially to a younger subclade associated with the same clan/family).
    I thought about that too, but for such a check, the resolution needs to be really good. Because as long as they are in the same larger group, they could be either close family or members of a whole larger clan and tribe, which too won't be the same. Since Anthony spoke about possible familial relationships and close ties between Yamnaya and Corded Ware people, the Langobard and Bell Beaker studies too did check for family members, among many other studies of that kind, it should be an option in this case as well. Because the time frame is pretty much the same, so if they are at least cousins of the 1st - 4th degree or something along these lines, it should be visible in the genome imho. In an ideal case scenario they indeed check the SNPs down to the private ones, but whether the resolution is high enough for that, I don't know. For detecting grandfather : father : son and even something more complicated than that, it should be high enough I'd say.

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  8. #175
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    By the way, does anybody know what kind of results these tests produced:

    The study compared the Y chromosome markers, that is DNA inherited from father to son, of more than 340 men with the DNA samples of 75 men buried between the 9th and 13th centuries near the town of Uherské Hradište. Luděk Galuška, the Head of the Centre for Slavonic Archaeology at the Moravian Museum in Brno, outlines more details:

    “The research was part of a large project focused on one of the best known Great Moravian archaeological sites called Uherské Hradiště Sady. In the 1950s and 1960s a large religious settlement was uncovered here, including a large church and a baptistery, surrounded by nearly 1,000 tombs. Around ninety of them dated back to Great Moravia, while the rest were from the10th to 13th centuries.”
    https://english.radio.cz/dna-test-tr...blemen-8135728

    I hear about that study the first time after doing a Google search on Moravian ancient DNA. Both ancient and modern results could be enlightening in some respects.

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  10. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    If Arza on Eurogenes is right, the absolute dominance of G2 in Kowalewko is quite astonishing:


    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?po...up=true&page=2

    That's probably the highest frequency of G2 in that region since Neolithic times found so far afaik. Could they be closely related?
    The late Roman sample R108 has a G2a clade nestled within the same cluster as these ones. Do you or anyone know what kind of ancestry this sample had?

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  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The late Roman sample R108 has a G2a clade nestled within the same cluster as these ones. Do you or anyone know what kind of ancestry this sample had?
    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108
    0.02439950 French_Provence
    0.02455586 Italian_Northeast
    0.02555392 Swiss_French
    0.02590691 French_Auvergne
    0.02614902 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.02702729 French_Alsace
    0.02834732 Swiss_German
    0.02948824 French_Occitanie
    0.02971069 French_Nord
    0.03102592 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03132158 Spanish_Penedes
    0.03183741 Italian_Veneto
    0.03227848 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.03299106 French_Paris
    0.03301300 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    0.03305141 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.03336204 Spanish_Girona
    0.03343724 Belgian
    0.03367627 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.03389013 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.03541048 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.03567985 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.03596461 Spanish_Lleida
    0.03645149 Spanish_Baleares
    0.03735862 Spanish_Eivissa
    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108
    Distance: 1.4046% / 0.01404621 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    39.4 French_Pas-de-Calais
    33.2 Macedonian
    17.8 Spanish_Navarra
    6.8 French_Seine-Maritime
    2.2 Yemenite_Mahra
    0.6 Surui
    Somewhat Northern shifted, but doesn't stick out. There are other samples from Italy which were significantly more Northern shifted. Clearly differentiated from the Imperial era South-East Mediterranean shifted samples however, going in a Northern direction relative to those:

    R108: Gallo-Roman + Frank (3.723)
    Vascones + Frank (4.46)
    Visigoth + Vascones (4.729)
    Etruscan + Frank (4.997)
    Visigoth + Frank (5.107)
    Visigoth (7.62)
    Frank (8.358)
    Gallo-Roman (9.042)
    Etruscan (10.23)
    Vascones (11.91)
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ulators)/page2
    Last edited by Riverman; 04-20-2021 at 09:27 AM.

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  14. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Been trying to assign a deeper subclade for the R-L151 individual - POH27.

    It looks like he's R-Z49*, more specifically he is derived for several SNPs that define the R-BY55682 subclade and at ancestral state for others.


    Here's a lit of derived SNPs for POH27 that aren't on YFull but included on the FTDNA tree for R-BY55682

    BY128477 (2 reads)
    BY96884 (2 reads)
    BY199460 (3 reads)
    It is a 100%?????

  15. #179
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    @ ph2ter
    As a sanity check a run of good old nMonte: (unscaled, penalized)
    near neighbors:
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK60 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK156
    1.958520 2.195746 2.209955
    Scythian_HUN:I20745 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK154 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA:VK541
    2.249933 2.269670 2.301912
    Migration: POH41 Baltic_EST_MA:s19_IIf_1
    2.302412 2.305450

    [1] "distance%=1.3212"

    Migration:1

    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA,39.8
    Migration2:12,15.6
    VK2020_RUS_Pskov_VA,7.8
    Scythian_UKR,7.4
    Baltic_EST_MA,6.4
    DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA,5
    UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine,4.8
    VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA,2.6
    Scythian_HUN,2.4
    VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA,2.4
    CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany,2.2
    VK2020_NOR_North_VA,1
    Scythian_MDA_o,0.6
    VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA,0.6
    FRA_Grand_Est_IA2,0.4
    England_Roman,0.2
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity,0.2
    Sarmatian_RUS_Pokrovka,0.2
    Sarmatian_RUS_Urals,0.2
    VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA,0.2

    The same pattern as in UMAP :
    very Eastern
    The only German in POH44 is the eastern Germanic DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA, not a single DEU_MA.
    Only traces of Western Vikings.

    My conclusion remains: the German ancestry in POH44 is virtually nil, unless you consider the Kowalewko samples (Migration2:12) as German.


    Edit: Like in the UMAP analysis, I did not use modern samples, but only IA-MA.
    Last edited by Huijbregts; 04-20-2021 at 10:51 AM.

  16. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    The only German in POH44 is the eastern Germanic DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA, not a single DEU_MA.
    These "Germans" were Wends/Slavs (or Wends/Slavs culturally germanised by that time?).

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Anhalt-Germany

    Google translate:
    "Settlement findings from the early, but primarily the late Middle Ages could be uncovered on an area of ​​approx. 0.5 ha, on which around 20 employees are currently working. The settlement, which later fell into desolation, for which the name Krakau has been handed down from written sources, which has been preserved in the field name "Krakauer Berg" to this day, comprised several house floor plans that could be identified by means of brick cellars. The water supply to the settlement was ensured by wells. Such a well with stone surround could be documented, as well as a stove. In addition to mainly ceramic material - including Slavic goods from the early Middle Ages - the finds consist of traditional costume components such as bronze temple rings and bone buttons. A metal rider's spur and a hollow penny from Weißenfels can be highlighted as special artefacts within the find material of the desert. The name Krakau/Kraków, which is documented several times in the Middle Ages in the Slavic settlement area, indicates the origin of the settlement in Slavic times."

    https://www.archaeologie-online.de/n...-peissen-2673/

    Eastern border of the Franconian Empire separating them from the Slavs in the 8-9th c.
    Last edited by Waldemar; 04-20-2021 at 11:34 AM.

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