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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes, but obviously this was no Germanic warrior (no signs of it). What could well be the case that a person with most probably roots in the Wielbark/Gothic context went to Moravia....or both parents had migrated to it. Whatsoever. May be that simple
    The person from Břeclav - Líbivá, Czech Republic, grave 8 - LIB2 is Germanic and below you have the answer to Michał's question.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
    Polish: 27.8%
    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Ok clear!
    And.
    It was just before the coining and use of the name "Slavs" I guess that along the 'West-Slavs' there was a contingent of Suebi and Goths and such like Germanics that went into the West Slavic mix....
    The Slavs came to this area later when most of the Germanic tribes withdrew to other areas after the destabilization of the Roman Empire


    From 550 the Slavs in South Moravia become tangible and after the Lombards withdrew in the 6th century, the Slavs spread from the Danube over Pannonia, Noricum and Carinthia, gradually settling in what is now Upper Austria north of the Danube and Lower Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola and East Tyrol.

    An example destination, probably Vandals, no Slavic admixture SVK_Poprad_MA: DA119 (early medieval Germanic sample from Slovakia)

    Distance: 2.2655% / 0.02265526
    70.0 Germanic
    15.0 Balkans_IA
    10.2 DEU_Welzin_BA
    3.2 RUS_Alan_MA
    1.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
    Last edited by Alain; 05-04-2021 at 08:56 AM.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
    Polish: 27.8%
    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  4. #403
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    SVK_Poprad_MA: DA119

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 66.9% Southwest_English + 33.1% Ukrainian @ 2.46
    2 63.7% Southwest_English + 36.3% South_Polish @ 2.55
    3 66.7% Southwest_English + 33.3% Polish @ 2.7
    4 70.9% Southwest_English + 29.1% Estonian_Polish @ 2.77
    5 70.9% Southeast_English + 29.1% Polish @ 2.78

  5. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    The Slavs came to this area later when most of the Germanic tribes withdrew to other areas after the destabilization of the Roman Empire


    From 550 the Slavs in South Moravia become tangible and after the Lombards withdrew in the 6th century, the Slavs spread from the Danube over Pannonia, Noricum and Carinthia, gradually settling in what is now Upper Austria north of the Danube and Lower Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola and East Tyrol.

    An example destination, probably Vandals, no Slavic admixture SVK_Poprad_MA: DA119 (early medieval Germanic sample from Slovakia)

    Distance: 2.2655% / 0.02265526
    70.0 Germanic
    15.0 Balkans_IA
    10.2 DEU_Welzin_BA
    3.2 RUS_Alan_MA
    1.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
    Indeed and it's unlikely that all the Poprad and Lib2 ancestry disappeared from Moravia.....they fused.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-04-2021 at 09:43 AM.

  6. #405
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    Poland Poland Pomerania




    Kowalewko_Goths_Male:2,0.136588,0.133034,0.078441, 0.067 507,0. 056626,0.025658,0.020916,0.012692,0.016566,0.00236 9,-0.017376,0.007343,-0.002379,-0.005918,0.00665,0.011535,-0.010691,0.024198,-0.003268,0.015758,0.010357,0.000618,0.002465,0.006 266,-0.003353
    Kowalewko_Goths_Male:7,0.127482,0.125926,0.078441, 0.053 295,0. 049548,0.023706,0.013631,0.006461,0.01084,-0.00893,-0.007145,0.004796,-0.011001,0.006606,0.03203,0.001326,-0.001304,0.014949,0.014204,0.008629,0.021462,-0.018301,0.000493,0.000241,-0.002275
    Kowalewko_Goths_Male:8,0.144555,0.137096,0.06939,0 .0545 87,0.0 18157,0.023985,0.011751,0.004154,0.002045,-0.008383,-0.014615,-0.013038,0.003419,-0.007156,0.024022,0.005569,-0.008605,-0.005954,-0.002011,0.012006,0.011854,-0.008779,-0.003944,0.024943,0.003592
    Kowalewko_Goths_Male:9,0.140002,0.120848,0.071653, 0.067 83,0.0 48624,0.023148,-0.000235,0.001846,0.015544,-0.02442,-0.003897,0.01109,0.005054,-0.007569,0.035966,0.022275,0.003651,-0.010769,-0.000377,0.016383,0.007986,-0.001978,-0.004807,0.016749,-0.007784
    Kowalewko_Goths_Male:12,0.111547,0.12491,0.070522, 0.062 016,0. 042469,0.013108,0.007755,0.019384,-0.008795,-0.000364,0.007795,0.012289,-0.01115,-0.001927,0.010722,0.001193,-0.011083,0.013809,0.019357,-0.002751,0.013351,0.008903,-0.00456,0.008555,-0.022393
    Poprad_Vandal:DA119,0.124067,0.135065,0.059585,0.0 43282,0.041238,0.017291,-0.001175,0.002769,0.002659,-0.00328,-0.003248,0.007044,-0.012487,-0.006606,0.0057,0.020154,0.002217,0.000127,-0.000377,-0.00075,-0.00287,0.004081,0.000986,0.021328,0.000599
    Breclav_Suebi:LIB2,0.12862,0.145221,0.071653,0.063 308,0.045855,0.025937,0.005875,0.005307,-0.001023,-0.005649,-0.009743,0.002548,-0.00669,-0.00812,0.013165,0,-0.001043,-0.003674,-0.008673,0.016133,0.006863,0.006925,-0.000123,0.01687,-0.010658
    Slavic_R-L1029:VK139,0.1161,0.131003,0.076178,0.073967,0.04 7393,0.02761,-0.0047,0.011307,0.010635,-0.020957,0.003573,-0.007793,0.018137,0.026148,-0.008822,-0.00305,-0.001043,0.001014,0.003897,0.002376,-0.003119,-0.007419,0.00912,-0.003494,-0.003233
    Slavic_R-L1029_o:VK160,0.127482,0.122879,0.078818,0.072029, 0. 044931,0.037092,0.004935,0.016615,-0.0045,-0.030616,-0.000974,-0.01154,0.019029,0.024772,-0.0095,-0.001326,-0.001956,-0.003167,0.009553,5e-04,-0.001747,-0.003215,0.010476,0.00241,0.004191
    Slavic_R-L1029:VK309,0.135449,0.136081,0.079572,0.062016,0. 053241,0.023148,0.00987,0.014307,-0.005522,-0.021139,-0.004872,-0.007643,0.014866,0.015551,-0.000814,-0.003315,0.002086,-0.000507,-0.00352,0.005878,-0.011854,0.007543,0.004067,0.000361,-0.002754
    Slavic_R-L1029:VK541,0.122929,0.12491,0.058831,0.052972,0.0 32314,0.01757,0.00705,0.01223,-0.005113,-0.015672,-0.00065,-0.004946,0.014866,0.022708,-0.015336,-0.001856,0.008736,-0.002027,-0.00088,0.004127,-0.005615,-0.012984,0.009737,-0.005422,0.004191
    Slavic_R-L1029:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.075424,0.072029,0 .046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
    Slavic_R-L1029:KRA003,0.127482,0.121864,0.07995,0.072675,0. 052317,0.013108,0.008695,0.012461,0.004704,-0.023144,-0.00341,-0.005695,0.016204,0.007019,-0.005836,0.021745,0.020861,-0.001267,0.00176,0.002501,-0.008984,-0.005193,0.005546,0.00976,0.005748
    Slavic_R-L260:VK453,0.108132,0.135065,0.073161,0.061047,0.0 50471,0.01255,0.00282,0.014538,0.005522,-0.027153,0.008444,-0.001798,0.013677,0.020231,-0.020494,0.001061,-0.016689,-0.003294,-0.008045,-0.002376,-0.01123,-0.012242,0.003697,-0.009037,0.000479
    Slavic_R-L260:VK494,0.126344,0.125926,0.085606,0.066215,0.0 51702,0.034861,0.017626,0.014307,0.003886,-0.017312,-0.006496,3e-04,0.016353,0.029314,-0.011672,-0.005171,-0.014081,0.004181,0.013073,0.002126,0.009483,0.005 812,0.005669,-0.004699,0.001078
    Slavic_I-Y3120_o:VK210,0.117238,0.121864,0.067505,0.05168,0 .0 47701,0.018965,0.008225,-0.004615,-0.006136,-0.03098,-0.008282,-0.008542,0.006095,0.003578,0.001221,-0.024131,-0.019558,0.011275,0.004777,-0.001376,-0.022336,0.000742,0.003821,0.01446,-0.003473
    Slavic_I-Y3120:VK542,0.118376,0.125926,0.062225,0.04845,0.0 28621,0.012271,0.00705,0.011769,-0.007363,-0.020775,-0.000162,-0.001499,0.013082,0.025873,-0.012622,-0.004906,-0.014342,-0.002027,-0.000377,0.002626,-0.002371,0.000989,0.003697,-0.006025,0.005149
    Slavic_I-Y3120:Sunghir6,0.129758,0.116786,0.070899,0.060078 ,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868
    Slavic_I-Y3120:KRA008,0.132035,0.135065,0.076555,0.06137,0. 043085,0.025937,0.00564,0.007384,0.002045,-0.02041,-0.010555,-0.005995,0.014569,0.004129,-0.012758,0.001856,0.022035,-0.000633,0.005531,0.002501,-0.00025,-0.002349,-0.001849,-0.006748,0.001078
    Slavic_I-Y3120:POH36,0.12862,0.132019,0.072407,0.05491,0.05 5395,0.01004,0.00376,0.006692,0.005727,-0.02278,0.000812,-0.025777,0.005946,0.015138,-0.011672,0.00358,0.014864,-0.006334,0.007919,-0.001876,-0.003619,-0.000247,0.002835,0.000964,0.005389
    Slavic_I-Y3120:POH41,0.129758,0.128972,0.074293,0.062016,0. 033852,0.01757,0.014101,0.013153,0.000205,-0.01877,-0.00682,0.005545,0.013528,0.026286,-0.011129,0.012596,0.00013,-0.001014,0.004274,0.005503,0.001747,-0.001731,0.00912,-0.005543,0.014609
    Slavic_I-Y3120:POH44,0.138864,0.13405,0.078064,0.075259,0.0 53241,0.022869,0.022091,-0.000462,-0.005113,-0.017495,-0.010068,-0.003147,0.011744,0.016928,0,0.007027,0.011604,-0.008995,0.005279,0.005378,-0.007986,-0.007543,0.011832,-0.008555,0.007784

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  8. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post


    "The Archaeology of the Northwestern Slavs (Seventh To Ninth Centuries)"
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...inth_Centuries

    Twenty years ago things seemed to be quite clear: several different groups of Slavs had invaded East Central Europe at some point during the sixth century, and all archaeologically identifiable, cultural characteristics pointed to a Slavic 'homeland' in Eastern Europe. More recent research, however, has shown this to be a rather simplistic view of the past. This paper is intended as an overview of the current archaeological research on the early Middle Ages that is responsible for the radical change of view of the last decade or so. Dendrochronology, new approaches, and the critical assessment of the historiography of the problem contribute now to a different understanding. The material culture - pottery, hillforts, settlement features, burials - can now be explained in terms of the contemporary situation in East Central Europe, i. e., the consolidation of settlement patterns, economic structures, and society. Exactly what that means for the debate about the 'origins' of the western Slavs remains a matter of further research and discussion.

  9. #407
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    Finn

    Certainly some Germanic tribes are included in the Slavic population but someone different than if I include myself at about 20% but I am not the general public or an example of my mom at G25 German / Polish origin

    Target: Alain_mom
    Distance: 1.7935% / 0.01793514
    43.6 Baltic_Pre_Slav
    26.8 DEU_Welzin_BA
    12.6 Balkans_IA
    9.0 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
    8.0 Germanic

    Although DEU_Welzin_BA is not perfectly covered and if I ever get my notebook I have to change that again
    Last edited by Alain; 05-04-2021 at 09:40 AM.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
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    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
    Polish: 27.8%
    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  11. #408
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    If we look at many of the PCAs showing classic Germanic and Slavic ancestry plotted, what always caught my eye is the hole in between. And that's kind of "unnatural", because it just shows that Slavs were no direct neighbours of the Germanics. They are related, but there was "something in between". And these people in between, the Eastern Urnfield, especially Lusatian and related people, might either have contributed a significant amount, or very little to the succeeding people. It also depends on their own profile, how much they could have contributed. But the probability is just relatively high they in that triangle of Germanic - Slavic - Balkan and somewhere in between Germanics and Slavs. Like what else is supposed to have been in between these two. Some of the individuals from Tollense might show an ancestry somehow related, but not necessarily fitting at all.

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  13. #409
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    I've added Longobard male samples from Kindred SZ1.





    Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ12,0.135449,0.13 5065,0.060339,0.048127,0.047393,0.015339,0.0047,0. 005307,-0.001227,-0.002916,-0.007632,0.002398,0.000149,-0.006468,0.019272,0.002387,-0.000522,-0.003801,0.003017,0.007754,0.010606,0.005564,-0.00456,-0.001928,-0.001437
    Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ13,0.133173,0.13 3034,0.065996,0.059109,0.041238,0.017012,0.00423,0 .001154,-0.005522,-0.004191,-0.007632,0.007493,-0.008622,-0.004542,0.016422,0.006232,0.001043,-0.002407,0.007165,0.002876,0.015473,0.014715,0.003 328,0.01458,0.000359
    Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1_o:SZ14,0.119514,0. 144205,0.053551,0.036176,0.035391,0.008088,0.00047 ,0.007615,-0.001432,0.001276,-0.007307,0.013038,-0.014271,-0.017753,0.014386,-0.001724,-0.015646,-0.005194,0.014832,-0.005127,-0.001996,0.006554,-0.009244,0.011809,0.004191
    Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ15,0.138864,0.11 6786,0.058454,0.042959,0.036314,0.024821,0.00235,0 .010153,0.001227,-0.003827,0.001949,0.001948,-0.013082,-0.015276,0.016558,0.017634,0.012517,0.000127,0.013 073,0.013006,0.003993,0.00272,-0.002342,0.025064,-0.004191
    Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ22,0.130897,0.13 1003,0.057699,0.06137,0.044008,0.011713,0.00517,0. 002538,-0.000409,0.000547,-0.012991,0.005845,-0.004906,-0.010735,0.010586,0.012463,0.000782,-0.003801,0.002891,0.012381,0.009109,0.004328,-0.004314,0.005663,0.003952
    Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ24,0.134311,0.13 2019,0.053551,0.040698,0.038776,0.010598,-0.00282,0.000692,0.001023,-0.001458,-0.010068,0.002997,-0.013379,0.001514,0.013843,0.019225,-0.00013,-0.005068,0.002137,0.009129,-0.007612,0.005935,0.001849,0.008796,-0.001078
    Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ7,0.135449,0.135 065,0.066373,0.062016,0.035083,0.01255,0.00611,0.0 05307,0.003272,0,-0.011205,3e-04,-0.007433,-0.010322,0.018729,0.002784,-0.005476,0.000127,0.001885,0.002376,0.009234,0.007 419,0.001602,0.015785,-0.001197
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-04-2021 at 01:23 PM.

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  15. #410
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    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Distance to: Kowalewko_Goths_Male:2
    0.04378439 Swedish
    0.04819853 Icelandic
    0.04861532 Danish

    Distance to: Kowalewko_Goths_Male:7
    0.04247837 Swedish
    0.04537284 Danish
    0.04678140 Icelandic

    Distance to: Kowalewko_Goths_Male:8
    0.04140696 Icelandic
    0.04235455 Swedish
    0.04306556 Danish

    Distance to: Kowalewko_Goths_Male:9
    0.04865652 Swedish
    0.05014288 Norwegian
    0.05075888 Icelandic

    Distance to: Kowalewko_Goths_Male:12
    0.04835482 Swedish
    0.04873335 Dutch
    0.04934223 Danish

    Distance to: Breclav_Suebi:LIB2 (or Gothic?)
    0.03102445 Danish
    0.03209491 Swedish

    0.03235578 Icelandic

    ----------------------------------------------

    Distance to: Poprad_Vandal:DA119
    0.02770791 Dutch
    0.02795714 German
    0.03032380 Danish

    Distance to: Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ12
    0.02568458 Danish
    0.02591888 German
    0.02767236 Swedish

    Distance to: Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ13
    0.02456934 Danish
    0.02604314 Norwegian
    0.02609560 Icelandic

    Distance to: Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ15
    0.03689439 Norwegian
    0.03900287 Dutch
    0.04101741 Shetlandic

    Distance to: Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ22
    0.02865820 Danish
    0.02936321 Dutch

    0.03077981 Swedish

    Distance to: Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ24
    0.02880318 German
    0.03228432 Dutch
    0.03234315 Welsh

    Distance to: Szolad_Longobards_Male_Kindred1:SZ7
    0.01877011 Icelandic
    0.01918060 Danish
    0.01964676 Norwegian
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-04-2021 at 02:01 PM.

  16. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Waldemar For This Useful Post:

     Просигој (05-04-2021),  Bygdedweller (05-04-2021),  Chnodomar (05-04-2021),  CyrylBojarski (05-04-2021),  Finn (05-04-2021),  JMcB (05-04-2021),  leonardo (05-04-2021),  Michał (05-04-2021),  Mis (05-04-2021),  Riverman (05-04-2021)

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