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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    A big issue with such comparisons is why should the dominant people borrow words from their victims and servants at all? There are a couple of reasons, like the number and importance of the foreign people, but even more important is whether the terms are new and useful. This is more pronounced the more developed a culture is, the more terms it uses or has to use. The simpler a culture, the less need for new terms. One of the main sources of foreign, non-Indoeuropean terms might have been in many instances new natural phenomena, like new plants, animals or weather phenonemona. The biggest difference for Corded Ware people in the North was of course the importance of the sea. Now that's a whole lot of new techniques and terms people which don't live close to the sea don't need. And even if they need it, they can't learn it from experienced seafarers. So I'd say the main contributor of new terms was clearly the Funnel Beaker-Globular Amphora horizon, which in many ways was a predecessor of the continental European IE branches and their ways, just lost in the competition.

    Would be interesting to check how much of the difference between the branches, its just a couple of terms anyway, can be attributed to the sea-related sphere. Because even for the Greeks, we see and know that seafaring was one of the main contributors if its about their non-Indoeuropean vocabulary. That's why I would take any such comparison which doesn't go deeper with a grain of salt. The sheer numbers might be at least somewhat misleading, but that's a hotly debated issue, since what's pre-IE in the Northern IE vocabulary is not self-evident of course. Terms can even get lost if not being constantly used - so a people which doesn't practise e.g. seafaring, will lose it, even if they got it at some point in time.
    Didn't I read somewhere that a part of the funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called "strava," which is a Slavic word? And of course there is speculation that Slavic was the koine language among the Avars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    South Slavs and Pannonian Slavs come from Penkovka culture, central Ukraine. They must have still been largely proto-Slavic, at least in the northern Balkans.



    These aren't pre-Slavs. It's the proto-Lithuanians and proto-Latvians, who came to today's Latvia and Lithuania from the south. This, plus medieval Slavic influence, especially in some parts of Lithuania.
    There could've been an earlier wave of Slavic-like influence in the Iron age too, but we would need Iron age samples from Latvia and Lithuania to know for sure.
    Ok, on other points.
    Re: South Slavs, while I don’t argue their point of departure (because I don’t know it) yet I argue they do have a sizeable substrate based on HRV_IA rich populations likely picked up on arrival.

    Re: Proto East Balts. It is somewhat likely that Proto-East-Balts ~ Proto-Slavs ~ Proto-Balto-Slavs genetically. But I am not sure what to make of West Balts then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Didn't I read somewhere that a part of the funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called "strava," which is a Slavic word? And of course there is speculation that Slavic was the koine language among the Avars.
    That slav could be the lingua franca of the Avar khanate is a thesis AFAIK of Florin Curta, whose thesis on the origin of the slavs is highly controversial to be honest. The lingua franca proposal according to Curta would explain the strong uniformity in common slavic despite the huge dispersal of its speakers.

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    Leonardo, genetic studies show that the Sorbs split from the Kashubians at the turn of the 3rd and 4th centuries. However, it cannot be interpreted the other way around, because at that time there could not have been any Baltic genes in Lusatia. But such genes could come to Lusatia without any problems from Pomerania, with Kashubians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Leonardo, genetic studies show that the Sorbs split from the Kashubians at the turn of the 3rd and 4th centuries. However, it cannot be interpreted the other way around, because at that time there could not have been any Baltic genes in Lusatia. But such genes could come to Lusatia without any problems from Pomerania, with Kashubians.
    KRA001 and KRA003 are associated with the Kashubians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I am a member of that clade, Riverman. The TMRCAs do attest to Slavic expansion, but the locations do not attest to Kiev Culture. There are two options. The Balto-Slavic option, where the clade was a member of the tribe called the Neuri, living around the rivers Narew and Neris, which is related to their tribal name. Then there is the singleton or squib option, where the ancestor of we YP619s (the ultimate L1029 son YP446 is descended from) was from a culture that was decimated when the Goths invaded Poland and remained scattered until the early Slavs swept up the YP446 MRCA and allowed him to spread his descendants.
    While I agree with the general approach you are taking (TMRCA + geographic distribution need to be considered for each subclade of L1029 when considering the origins) we need to be mindful of the reliability of the TMRCAs. Right now, sample sizes are small and statistical range of age options remain wide.

    These subclades could be older or younger than the Yfull age given.

    But yeah your clade doesn’t look the most Slavic to me if we take the current data at face value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    If the Milograd Culture did transition to cremation in its later stages, that may be telling in regard to an influx of change.
    Yeah that’s what I’m thinking. Perhaps explained by the influx of Pomeranian culture people… that would later go on to form Zarubinetz culture… that would go on to form Kiev culture.

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    Leonardo, I don't remember where the KRA001 and KRA003 samples are located on the PCA.

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    I am not sure if anyone mentioned this yet but these presentations (/studies?) from the ISBA9 (a few days ago) could be very relevant for the thread. Perhaps someone could contact the authors, if interested:

    Szecsenyi-Nagy Anna. Unraveling the genetic network of Bronze Age populations: complex
    genomic structures in the 3000-800 BC East-Central Europe

    Olalde Iñigo. Human mobility at the Roman Danubian Limes before and after the fall of the Empire


    Also at least these from the upcoming EAA21 in september (https://www.e-a-a.org/EAA2021/Programme.aspx?Program=3)

    Ancient genomes reveal social and geographic structuring of the population in Carpathian Basin at the time of the Avar empire

    Investigating kinship practices through dense spatial and temporal sampling of 5‐6th century cemeteries in Pannonia


    Authors unfortunately unknown yet.

    I am sure there are actually many more relevant studies in that huge EAA list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Leonardo, I don't remember where the KRA001 and KRA003 samples are located on the PCA.
    I have shared ancestry with both KRA001 and KRA003 and my last European ancestor came from Kashubia. But if you follow the screenshots I have provided, the subclades that are downstream from YP263 follow a path through Malopolskie, then Dolnoslaskie and even into what is now Germany before myself and the other match at my terminal subclade end up in Pomorze. Isn't it possible the Baltic influence came from the YP263 (or further upstream) level?
    Screenshot (22).png
    Screenshot (20).png
    Last edited by leonardo; 06-18-2021 at 09:07 PM.

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