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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1481
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    Used genoplot to substrat 75% AV2-like ancestry from North Slavs to see were is the remaining 25% ancestry of them plotting in the West Eurasia PCA (just an experiment). It seems South Russians are shifted in the direction of some Scythians from Ukraine probably a result of their slight East Asian admixture from Finno Ugrians + low Sarmartian/Alan/Balkan admixture. Ukrainians are more shifted towards the Balkan and Poles towards Central Europe. Way or another East Slavs don't look like a mix of Poles and Balts in any PCA.



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  3. #1482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Used genoplot to substrat 75% AV2-like ancestry from North Slavs to see were is the remaining 25% ancestry of them plotting in the West Eurasia PCA (just an experiment). It seems South Russians are shifted in the direction of some Scythians from Ukraine probably a result of their slight East Asian admixture from Finno Ugrians + low Sarmartian/Alan/Balkan admixture. Ukrainians are more shifted towards the Balkan and Poles towards Central Europe. Way or another East Slavs don't look like a mix of Poles and Balts in any PCA.


    Belarusians without Av are within Baltic range though. But that was expected.

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  5. #1483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    For some reason many Belarusians, Ukrainians and West Russians are slightly eastern or CHG- shifted compared to AV2 or Krakauer Berg. You would expect them to be more Balt_BA shifted because of Baltic admixture but many seem to be shifted in the direction of Steppe and CHG/Caucasus instead of Balt_BA. Russians certainly are mostly shifted so because of Finno-Ugrian admixture but even Belarusians are on average slightly shifted eastwards but the Belarusian cluster overlaps with AV2 still. There is probably a slight difference between West and East Belarus and i think West Belarusians will be much closer to AV2. East Belarusian and East Ukrainians could have low Finno-Ugrian admixture which shifts them here eastwards or admixture from some other Pre-Slavic Balto-Slavs lower in HG and higher in Steppe.

    Target: Russian_Orel
    Distance: 6.5498% / 0.06549833
    54.6 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    38.6 POL_Globular_Amphora
    5.4 HUN_Koros_N_HG
    1.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    Target: Ukrainian
    Distance: 6.3327% / 0.06332684
    52.6 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    42.2 POL_Globular_Amphora
    4.4 HUN_Koros_N_HG
    0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    Target: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    Distance: 6.8044% / 0.06804439
    52.4 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    38.2 POL_Globular_Amphora
    9.0 HUN_Koros_N_HG
    0.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    Target: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007
    Distance: 7.3956% / 0.07395577
    52.6 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    34.4 POL_Globular_Amphora
    13.0 HUN_Koros_N_HG

    Target: Belarusian
    Distance: 7.1385% / 0.07138543
    53.4 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    37.2 POL_Globular_Amphora
    9.0 HUN_Koros_N_HG
    0.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    It's unexpected but with admixtools the Central and Northern Russians prefer Srubnaya/Steppe-MLBA over any Baltic_BA pop, what seems to work best is AV2 + Srubnaya Alakul + KRA001/Nganasan even for the Russians from Archangelsk.

    If I had to guess why that is, the CW that was later absorbed in what is now northwestern Russia by Uralics probably weren't as HG-heavy as the later Baltic_CW but still relatively rich in Steppe ancestry compared to more contemporary populations like AV2 - which is why Srubnaya works better than Latvia_BA for example.

    Whatever Pre-Slavic/East-Baltic populations the Eastern-Slavs absorbed during the Middle Ages would have had to be very similar to AV2 Imho, the Baltic_BA type of ancestry would have been picked up by West-Balts as they expanded North into Latvia, to a lesser degree Lithuania.

     




     



     



     



     




     


     


     


    I ran several rotating models for Mordvins and they consistently scored 0.7-0.75 AV2, around 0.2 Srubnaya, 0.07 KRA001 - which is close to the results they seem to get onG25.

    The Ryazan Russians probably have some admixture from the Steppe in the last 1000 years, Ural Sarmatians, TianShan Huns, and Saka were all preferred over the Steppe MLBA + KRA001 combo during the model rotation.
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

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  7. #1484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Do we have any modern mtDNA matches of Av1 and Av2?

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/X2-a/ (MG182476, MG182477)

    http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_..._sequences.htm

    mtDNA X2-G225A (A73G A153G T195C A200G G225A A263G A302N T310N A750G A1438G G1719A A2706G C4604N A4769G T6221C C6371T C7028T A8860G A9007G G11719A C12417N C12705T C13230N A13966G T14470C G14544A C14766T A15326G A16141G C16223T C16242T C16278T T16519C)
    Hopefully auDNA of this "Eastern European" (Antes, Sclaveni? Others?) population will be released soon.

    "Interestingly the [Avar] elite group does not exhibit a genetic connection to the previously investigated small Avar period population from southeast Hungary either, because the latter shows predominantly Eastern European maternal genetic and also different archaeological characters with Eastern European traditions (catacomb graves and partial animal depositions for e.g.). The genetic difference correlates well with the cultural and anthropological differences of this group and shows that the conquering Avar population was heterogeneous and differed in genetic makeup from the local population.

    One sample in our dataset (HC9) comes from this population, and both his mtDNA (T1a1b) and Y chromosome (R1a) support Eastern European connections. The observed within-Avar genetic differences correlate well with the cultural and anthropological differences of this group and demonstrate the heterogeneity of the Avar population."





    -------------------------------------

    "Pitvaros-Víztározó - 225 graves of the late Avar cemetery on the outskirts of the Pitvaros village (Csongrád County, Hungary) was excavated between 1993–1996 by Lívia Bende. On the basis of the special burial customs the community, which has used this cemetery, seems to have been the descendants of the population of the Eastern European origin known in the early Avar period. The small community, which has opened the cemetery, stretched from the western part of the Transtisza region to the area inside the rivers around the middle of the 7th century. The community kept their special burial customs all the way (catacomb graves, partial sacrificial animals etc.). The cemetery was used between 650/660 and the end of the 8th century.
    The skull of the Europid type mature man buried into the catacomb grave 72 was slightly distorted. The burial customs, primarily the catacomb grave is a characteristic of the population of the Eastern European origin, but the man wore the Meroving-type belt decorated with metal inlay, which was supposed to be a gift from a Meroving cultures community of the Transdanubia. The grave was dated to the turn of the 7th-8th centuries."



    Distance to: PVper72 (low quality sample)
    17.12584596 Belarusian_Minsk
    17.20299102 Russian_Kargopol
    17.28154796 Latvian
    17.38495614 Russian_average
    17.85450643 Mordovian
    17.98171293 Lithuanian
    18.60265841 Russian_Smolensk
    18.62510403 Ukrainian
    18.64797844 Russian_Kostroma
    18.69707464 Russian_Southwest
    19.16255202 Russian_Northern_Dvina
    19.32386866 Belorussian
    19.96688759 Polish_Kielce
    20.18186810 Polish
    21.16438518 Estonian
    21.62311957 Moldova_Ukrainian
    21.75174706 Polish_Masuria
    21.87114080 East_Finnish
    22.62672314 Ukrainian_Galicia
    22.79878506 South_Polish
    23.84950314 Ukrainian_Carpathian
    24.09023661 Finnish
    24.66391291 Sorb_Lusatia
    25.80640618 Slovak
    27.06458202 Bosniak_Bosnia
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-14-2021 at 06:43 AM.

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  9. #1485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Used genoplot to substrat 75% AV2-like ancestry from North Slavs to see were is the remaining 25% ancestry of them plotting in the West Eurasia PCA (just an experiment). It seems South Russians are shifted in the direction of some Scythians from Ukraine probably a result of their slight East Asian admixture from Finno Ugrians + low Sarmartian/Alan/Balkan admixture. Ukrainians are more shifted towards the Balkan and Poles towards Central Europe. Way or another East Slavs don't look like a mix of Poles and Balts in any PCA.


    inspired by this, 2-way models for North Slavs and Lithuanians (with some filtering of populations) :

    Code:
    Target: Lithuanian_VZ
    Distance: 1.0313% / 0.01031337 | R2P
    65.4	Baltic_EST_BA
    34.6	HUN_MA_Szolad_germanic
    
    Target: Lithuanian_VA
    Distance: 0.8411% / 0.00841115 | R2P
    69.6	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    30.4	Baltic_EST_BA
    
    Target: Lithuanian_SZ
    Distance: 0.6033% / 0.00603336 | R2P
    50.8	Baltic_EST_BA
    49.2	Migration_POH
    
    Target: Lithuanian_RA
    Distance: 0.8520% / 0.00851975 | R2P
    50.6	Migration_POH
    49.4	Baltic_EST_BA
    
    Target: Lithuanian_PZ
    Distance: 0.8644% / 0.00864430 | R2P
    69.6	Baltic_EST_BA
    30.4	HUN_MA_Szolad_germanic
    
    Target: Lithuanian_PA
    Distance: 0.9604% / 0.00960418 | R2P
    62.8	Baltic_EST_BA
    37.2	HUN_MA_Szolad_Celt
    
    Target: POL_Kashubian
    Distance: 1.7304% / 0.01730380 | R2P
    52.6	RUS_Ingria_IA
    47.4	HUN_MA_Szolad_germanic
    
    Target: Belarusian
    Distance: 0.8563% / 0.00856303 | R2P
    83.2	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    16.8	Baltic_EST_BA
    
    Target: Russian_Voronez
    Distance: 1.1562% / 0.01156219 | R2P
    89.6	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    10.4	Scythian_UKR
    
    Target: Russian_Tver
    Distance: 1.5085% / 0.01508545 | R2P
    90.8	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    9.2	FIN_Levanluhta_IA
    
    Target: Russian_Smolensk
    Distance: 1.1599% / 0.01159883 | R2P
    70.8	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    29.2	KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro_Baltic
    
    Target: Russian_Pinega
    Distance: 1.5389% / 0.01538852 | R2P
    55.2	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    44.8	RUS_Chalmny-Varre
    
    Target: Russian_Orel
    Distance: 1.1027% / 0.01102735 | R2P
    88.8	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    11.2	Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
    
    Target: Russian_Kursk
    Distance: 1.3405% / 0.01340458 | R2P
    62.0	VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
    38.0	Baltic_EST_IA
    
    Target: Russian_Kostroma
    Distance: 1.1692% / 0.01169233 | R2P
    72.6	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    27.4	RUS_Chalmny-Varre
    
    Target: Sorb_Niederlausitz
    Distance: 1.3154% / 0.01315358 | R2P
    65.2	Migration_POH
    34.8	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    
    Target: German_East
    Distance: 0.7067% / 0.00706716 | R2P
    60.6	HUN_MA_Szolad_germanic
    39.4	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    
    Target: Czech
    Distance: 0.9544% / 0.00954424 | R2P
    54.6	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    45.4	HUN_MA_Szolad_germanic
    
    Target: Slovakian
    Distance: 0.8479% / 0.00847871 | R2P
    70.4	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    29.6	HUN_MA_Szolad_Celt
    
    Target: Polish
    Distance: 0.6209% / 0.00620895 | R2P
    62.2	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    37.8	HUN_Avar_Szolad
    
    Target: Ukrainian_B
    Distance: 1.3295% / 0.01329477 | R2P
    89.2	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    10.8	DEU_MA_ACD_Hun
    
    Target: Ukrainian
    Distance: 0.7955% / 0.00795500 | R2P
    61.4	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    38.6	VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
    
    Target: Cossack_Ukrainian
    Distance: 1.5696% / 0.01569588 | R2P
    92.2	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    7.8	Hun_Tian_Shan
    
    Target: Cossack_Kuban
    Distance: 1.7788% / 0.01778750 | R2P
    86.4	DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
    13.6	FIN_Levanluhta_IA

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  11. #1486
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    When the data from Southern/Southeastern Poland will be available?

    About Northern/Northwestern Poland...

    "The Migration Period (5th–6th century)

    The maps with palynological data for the Migration Period show forest regeneration and a significant decrease in anthropogenic vegetation in the western part of the territory under review. The proportion of cereal pollen falls dramatically or it disappears altogether. The palynological record of the settlement downturn is particularly obvious in the central and eastern parts of Pomorze, especially in Pojezierze Kaszubskie and Pojezierze Chełmińskie and in those sites in Wielkopolska which in the Late Roman Period were settled mainly by Wielbark Culture populations.

    In some sites in the western part of the territory studied, the decline of anthropogenic indicators is less prominent, which may be indicative of scattered settlement enclaves within otherwise depopulated regions. One of them is the site in Nizina Pyrzycka, where the proportion of anthropogenic indicators and cereals for the time-window of ca. AD 400–600 is even higher than in the preceding period (Figs 18, 20 and 22). This may be a trace of the Dębczyno Group settlement, whose presence in the area has been documented archaeologically. An interesting record has been obtained from Lake Godziszewskie, situated not far from the town of Pruszcz Gdański, where a large settlement cluster of the Wielbark Culture was functioning in the Roman Period. A fairly high proportion of anthropogenic indicators, and especially of cereal pollen, suggests settlement activity in the area even in the Migration Period. Archaeological data obtained up to now indicate that the latest burials in Wielbark burial grounds in Pruszcz Gdański took place in the mid-5th c. (Site 5). Relatively high indicators of deforestation and a considerable proportion of anthropogenic indicators and cereal pollen in the sections correlating with the Migration Period are also characteristic of the profiles from Lake Gopło in Kujawy and Lake Wonieść in southern Wielkopolska. In this case, there is again no contradiction between palynological data and archaeological sources. The latter suggest that Przeworsk Culture settlement lasted well into the 5th c. in some parts of Wielkopolska, despite the demographic crisis. At the same time, the oldest early Slavic settlements may have developed here as early as the late 5th or the 6th c."

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Millennium_AD
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-14-2021 at 09:32 AM.

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  13. #1487
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    Google translate: "There is such a strange tendency in Polish archaeology that everything that is different, beautiful is immediately connected with a different ethnos, a different culture. Especially in Poland with Scandinavianness (...) Often DNA studies do not confirm this.

    It is also interesting that in Poland we are fascinated by Scandinavians, we try to find them everywhere. However, in Scandinavia, these contacts also existed, the Slavs found their way there and in fact we have a lot of Slavic material culture, temporal rings, and ceramics. In general, there is a moment that the Scandinavians stop producing their own ceramics and use mainly the Slavic or Slavic-inspired one. But somehow the Scandinavians are not fascinated by it, they even try to hide it, because this pottery was formerly called Wendish pottery, and now it's called Baltic pottery." [about Middle Ages]

    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-14-2021 at 01:43 PM.

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  15. #1488
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    Google translate: "The results of DNA analyzes appear slowly. There are not many of them yet. The problem is also that the Slavs initially used the cremation rite. We already have the first research carried out by Maurycy Stanaszek from the Archaeological Museum in Warsaw for the Wielbark culture and there are such [Y-DNA] haplogroups that are really typical for Scandinavian societies. So, as for the Wielbark culture [males], we can confirm that they were really strangers, specifically Germanic people, Scandinavians, Goths." [about Iron Age]
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-14-2021 at 11:52 AM.

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  17. #1489
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    Waldemar, Maurycy has so far examined only one burial of the Wielbark Culture from Mazovia, which turned out to be U106. Now Maurycy is examines medieval stone-encased graves.

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  19. #1490
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    Waldemar, the palynological results from southern Poland are in the work of Izdebski. In the years 400-600, cereal pollen drops by about half. But in Greater Poland they increase by more or less 50%. Izdebski and Latałowa investigated other sites in Greater Poland. Probably there was only a change in agricultural land, caused by soil sterilization, drought or flood.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...14498315000443

    And here is the overall results for the whole of Poland:

    https://slawomirambroziak.pl/forum/i...p?topic=5193.0

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