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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Jonas Bobiensis (circa 639-643)
    "ut Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur"

    Fredegar Anonymous (circa 659)
    "Sclavos coinomento Winedos" & "Sclavi coinomento Winidi"

    The Letters of Alcuin of York (early 790)
    Sclavos, quos nos Vionudos dicimus”

    A document from the time of Louis the German (regarding an earlier time around the year 793-794, about Bavarian Slavs)
    "ut in terra Sclavorum, qui sedent inter Moinum et Radantiam fluvios, qui vocantur Moinuvinidi et Ratanzvinidi una cum comitibus, qui super eosdem sclavos constituit erant"

    Etc. Etc.
    I do not know what you are trying to say here

    The last sentence is

    From the year 846 (a document from the time of Louis the German) we have the following information (regarding an earlier time around the year 793-794 or so):

    “Qualiter… domnus Karolus… episcopis praecepisset, ut in terra Sclavorum, qui sedent inter Moinum et Radantiam fluvios, qui vocantur Moinuwinidi et Ratanzwinidi [or Radanzwinidi] una cum comitibus, qui super eosdem sclavos constituit erant, procurrassent, ut inibi sicut in ceteris christianorum locis ecclesiae construerentur, quatenus ille populus noviter ad christianitatem conversus habere potuisset, ubi et baptismum perciperet et praedicationem audiret….”

    (Moinum/Moinu refers to the River Main. Radantiam/Ratanz refers to Radęca or, as it is called these days, River Regnitz/Rednitz).

    It tells of how “Charlemagne sent his bishops into the “terra Sclavorum”, i.e., the land of the Slavs who live between the Main and the Regnitz and who were, therefore, called the Main-Wends and the Regenz-Wends.” It is part of an order by Charlemagne to the Würzburg Bishop Bernwelf (768 or769 – 800) to build fourteen missionary churches among these Slavs.

    .......................

    Is it about the Vindelici ?
    Vindelici were supposedly a Celtic tribe – the Celtic designation often seemingly being that dumping place where you put things that are clearly not Germanic and that cannot possibly be Slavic.

    Roman historian Strabo states they ( Vindelici ) where a mix of Rhaetic and Illyrian people
    .................................................. .....


    Marcus Servius Honoratus says that the Vindelici were Liburnians. He says at paragraph 243:

    illyricos penetrare sinus Antenor non Illyricum, non Liburniam, sed Venetiam tenuit. ideo autem Vergilius dicit ‘Illyricos sinus’, quod inde venit quidam Henetus rex, qui Venetiam tenuit, a cuius nomine Henetiam dictam posteri Venetiam nominaverunt. tutus ideo tutus, quia Raeti Vindelici ipsi sunt Liburni, saevissimi admodum populi, contra quos missus est Drusus. hi autem ab Amazonibus originem ducunt, ut etiam Horatius dicit “quibus mos unde deductus per omne tempus Amazonia securi dextras obarmet, quaerere distuli” . hoc ergo nunc ad augmentum pertinet, quod tutus est etiam inter saevos populos.”

    The area was near Lake Venetus ............now called Lake Constance
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Constance


    The red text means ...........Antenor ( a trojan prince ) brought trojans and allies ( eneti ) to the Illyrian bay , bypassing the Liburnians ( he means, went to the current Gulf of Venice )
    .................................................. ..........................


    https://i1.wp.com/www.jassa.org/wp-c...4/liburnia.jpg


    The green colour on the adriatic sea are the Liburnians ...............the Iapides in Liburnian became the messapic people later .........and the Iazyges in the NE part of the map are a mix of Illyrian and Thracians

    ..................................................

    Moving to Sclavi in venetian archives ...............this referred only to Croatians and not Dalmatians, Serbians, Bulgarians, etc



    if you want to read further
    https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=747


    .................................................. ..........................

    Sebastian Cabot wrote ............the Language of the Croatians was the same as the Bohemians ..........when gathering men to go to the Americas for the English king

    Sebastian Cabot c. 1474 – c. December 1557, was a Venetian explorer, likely born in the Venetian Republic and a Venetian citizen. He was the son of Venetian explorer John Cabot (Giovanni Cabot) and his Venetian wife Mattea Zen
    Last edited by vettor; 07-27-2021 at 05:35 PM.


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  3. #2802
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Moving to Sclavi in venetian archives ...............this referred only to Croatians and not Dalmatians, Serbians, Bulgarians, etc
    In 1709, in Venetia, there was a bookshop selling Slavic books, at Riva dei Schiavoni, owned by some Bartul Occhi. The bookshop published a printed catalogue in Croatian with the following title:

    "Broj knjig hervatskih jimenovanih odzdola nahodi se u butiqi Bartula Occhi knjigara na Rivi od Hrvatov".

    Riva dei Schiavoni was translated as Riva od Hrvatov (Croats).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riva_degli_Schiavoni

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  5. #2803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    In 1709, in Venetia, there was a bookshop selling Slavic books, at Riva dei Schiavoni, owned by some Bartul Occhi. The bookshop published a printed catalogue in Croatian with the following title:

    "Broj knjig hervatskih jimenovanih odzdola nahodi se u butiqi Bartula Occhi knjigara na Rivi od Hrvatov".

    Riva dei Schiavoni was translated as Riva od Hrvatov (Croats).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riva_degli_Schiavoni
    Yes ...Riva means foreshore of the schiavoni ............all the Schiavoni came to Venice only through one Venetian port called Zara ( Zadar ) other Venetian ports where out of bounds for the croats .....................The Dalmatians where and have always been the Guards of the Doge of Venice .......they eventually where also called Schiavoni from about 1700 or after Morosini death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Morosini

    By this time Ragusa republic ( ancient Dalmatians and never under Venice ) plus other Dalmatians became Slavs by tongue ( language ) dropping off their Vegliot language and taking up a Venetian-Slav mix and then dropping Venetian for a croatian tongue
    The last speaker of Dalmatian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuone_Udaina


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  7. #2804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    The rapid expansion of the subclades in 6th-7th century might be related to the appearance of Komani–Krue culture.
    From urban to rural: changing diet and subsistence strategies at Butrint (Albania) in the 5th to 7th centuries

    This paper presents some of the key findings of major excavations at the Triconch Palace, a major late Roman domus at Butrint in southern Albania. Abandoned as an elite dwelling shortly after AD 420, the domus complex remained a focus of occupation for a further two centuries. Although no longer a focus of elite dwelling, prior to AD 500 the diet of the inhabitants was consistent with earlier patterns from Butrint with pigs and cattle dominant alongside evidence of domestic and wild fowl (the latter indicating hunting). After around AD 500 sheep/goat became dominant in the assemblage, while the material culture also reflects a shift to a more basic level of subsistence. During the 6th century, the area was partly used for burial. The graves were predominantly those of infants and children whose remains showed poor nutrition and high levels of weaning stress, which apparently contributed to high levels of child mortality. The Triconch Palace assemblage thus indicates an urban area that saw dramatic shifts in health and subsistence during late antiquity. This paper will present an outline of the evidence and offer some possible interpretations.

    These papers will also be interesting...

    Living in transitions: Life history and living environments from the Austrian Jauntal valley micro-region ca. 500-900 CE

    The period of transition from late antiquity to the early medieval period during the 5th-6th century in the Eastern Alpine region is influenced by large-scale migrations and the expansion of Christianity across (Eastern Alpine) Europe. The resulting exchanges of power led to a melting pot of different cultures inhabiting the region of what is today Lower Carinthia, in Austria, such as the Romans, Lombards, Slavs, Ostrogoths, and Avars. Despite the number of historical and archaeological sources, many questions about the development and structure of the medieval human population remain unanswered, particularly on people inhabiting Lower Carinthia. The core information about the early medieval human population derives mainly from cemetery contexts since few settlement contexts have been discovered and analyzed.

    The Jauntal valley is located in southern Austria near the Karawanken mountain ridge. Excavations at three cemetery sites have been conducted: the late antique/early medieval cemeteries at Hemmaberg (143 individuals), Globasnitz (422 individuals), and the early medieval cemeteries at Jaunstein (130 individuals). The close spatial and contemporary relationship between the sites, but differing in material culture, create a unique setting in the archaeological and anthropological record during the late-antique/early medieval transition period in the Eastern Alpine region. As a result, this micro-region is an ideal case study to explore the lived experiences by applying bioarchaeological methods to determine the nature of contact and interaction between potential different/differing cultural groups. Currently, three projects headed by the Austrian Archaeological Institute incorporate interdisciplinary bioarchaeological approaches investigating the living conditions and environments of this micro-region.

    From Roman Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages. Human skeletal material for the analysis of stable isotopes from necropolises of Wallachia and Scythia Minor (Romania)

    The withdrawal of Roman troops and administration from Dacia, at the end of the 3rd century AD, was followed in Wallachia by the appearance of migrant populations (Goths, Gepids, Huns, Avars, Proto-Bulgarians). This is proved by the funeral rituals, which have changed several times (from cremation to inhumation and vice-versa). In order to trace the socio-economic changes in the space between the Carpathians and the Danube, we have available skeletal material from three archaeological sites: Corabia (Olt County, 30 skeletons, cremation and inhumation, Roman period), Boldești-Grădiștea (Prahova County, 15 skeletons, inhumation, Sântana de Mureș-Cerneahov culture), Brăilița (Brăila County, 45 skeletons, cremation, Dridu culture). We mention the fact that we have very little information about the funerary phenomena of the 5th-7th centuries on the Lower Danube.

    The territory between the Danube and the Black Sea (Scythia Minor) continued to be an integral part of the Empire for about four centuries. Funeral manifestations are characterized by biritual cemeteries, cremation or inhumation. In order to follow the changes in diet, subsistence and mobility (local Christians or pagan populations in the process of Christianization?) of the populations from Scythia Minor, based on stable isotope analyses, we can take dental and bone samples from five necropolises: Satu Nou (Constanța County, 30 skeletons, mainly cremation, Roman-Byzantine period), Nufăru (Tulcea County, 10 skeletons, inhumation, Roman-Byzantine period), Isaccea (Tulcea County, 50 skeletons, inhumation, Roman-Byzantine period), Mangalia (Constanța County, 25 skeletons, inhumation, Roman-Byzantine period) and Istria (Constanța County, 25 skeletons, mainly burial, early Middle Ages).

    https://www.archeologia.uw.edu.pl/en...a-future-2021/
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-28-2021 at 05:10 AM.

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  9. #2805
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    Oh, didn't know that Patrick Geary will also analyse samples from eastern Germany and southern Poland?

    Google translate:
    Patrick Geary and Johannes Krause, together with other historians, archaeologists and geneticists, have now set up a new, much larger project on the migration of peoples. Funded with ten million euros. Scientists from Vienna, Budapest, Princeton and Jena are involved. HistoGenes is the name of the project in which a total of 6,000 skeletons from the migration period are to be analyzed. The bones come from graves in the Carpathian Basin.

    “So that means today's Hungary, the Czech Republic, Austria, Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia, and a little bit of Eastern Germany as well. Maybe also a little bit of southern Poland."

    https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/voelk...icle_id=500659
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-28-2021 at 06:30 AM.

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  11. #2806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Social status and diet. Reconstruction of diet of individuals buried in some early medieval chamber graves from Poland by carbon and nitrogen stable isotopes analysis

    Abstract
    The study presents results of the investigations of diet based on carbon and nitrogen stable isotope ratios (δ13C and δ15N) of the bone collagen of individuals buried in medieval elite chamber graves from the territory of the state of the first Piasts, Poland (the second half of the 10th and the first half of the 11th century). The aim of the research was to determine the diet of individuals buried in such funerary structures, to compare this with commoners buried in ordinary graves, and investigate any sex-related patterns. Rib bone samples were taken from individuals buried in chamber graves at Bodzia, Dziekanowice, Pień and Sowinki. Results indicate that the elite male diet was based on C3 plants with possible contribution of some C4 plants (millet) and substantial consumption of animal proteins including fish. The bone collagen δ13C and δ15N of male chamber burials suggested consumption of higher trophic level foodstuffs (meat and fish) whilst the female diet, and that of the juveniles, was similar to the commoners in the rest of the population.

    Conclusions
    Although these are small numbers of individuals from each site, the measurement of δ13C and δ15N of bone collagen of individuals buried in chamber graves has shown that the representatives of the early medieval elite buried in chamber graves from the territory of the state of the first Piasts had access to better food than contemporary commoners. In particular, there is evidence that the they consumed a diet richer in animal proteins (including fish). This could be related to both their high social status and the observance of the fasts associated with the introduction of Christianity. Christianization in the Piast state, similarly to other medieval states, took place “from the top to the bottom”, i.e. the social elites were the first to adopt the new religion, which over time imposed it on the rest of society. In their diet millet was also present, consumed in different forms, e.g. beer. However, the two males buried in chamber graves from the cemetery in Bodzia and Dziekanowice had similar diets to the surrounding population. It is apparent that the diet of members of the early medieval elite (the 10th–11th centuries) differed from the representatives of the elites of the early modern Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (the 17th–18th century). Females buried in chamber graves consumed a diet similar to the rest of the population and which was similar to the diet of the early medieval population from the cemetery at Kałdus. It was not as rich in animal proteins as the males and contained more plant products, including millet. The children (be-tween 2 and 13 years) had a diet similar to the elite women, with the exception of the two youngest who could have still been in the weaning process, or suffering nutritional deprivation.



    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...52409X21003151

    https://www.academia.edu/50306792/So...om_navbar=true
    "Current research, with the use of DNA and stable isotopes analyses (...), indicate that the majority of the deceased buried in the early medieval chamber graves in Polish lands are the representatives of local Slavic elites (Błaszczyk 2017; see the results of the research on the funeral rite and grave goods Gardeła 2016; Janowski 2010; Janowski 2011a; Janowski 2013; Janowski 2015), and only in a few incidents they were individuals from Scandinavia."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-28-2021 at 07:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Yes ...Riva means foreshore of the schiavoni ............all the Schiavoni came to Venice only through one Venetian port called Zara ( Zadar ) other Venetian ports where out of bounds for the croats .....................The Dalmatians where and have always been the Guards of the Doge of Venice .......they eventually where also called Schiavoni from about 1700 or after Morosini death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Morosini

    By this time Ragusa republic ( ancient Dalmatians and never under Venice ) plus other Dalmatians became Slavs by tongue ( language ) dropping off their Vegliot language and taking up a Venetian-Slav mix and then dropping Venetian for a croatian tongue
    The last speaker of Dalmatian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuone_Udaina
    In his work Historia Salonitana, Thomas Archidiaconus, " a Roman Catholic cleric, historian and chronicler from Split", noted that Croats and local Dalmatians were already a mixed populaton at least in the city of Split (Spalato). Thomas lived in 13th century. People like Tuone Udaina were more an exception then the rule, and he was most surely bilingual at the time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Archdeacon

    It is wrongly to consider these Dalmatian people "Venetians", aspecially the local nobility, as they've always seen the Venetians as foreign rulers even they might have been of Dalmatian descent. Venice had interest to secure the trading routes along the eastern Adriatic coast. IMO, that's why they were allways strougling to posess the coastal lands.

    Ragusa is a little different story. But it is offtopic anyway...

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  15. #2808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    the early medieval cemeteries at Jaunstein (130 individuals)
    These Carinthian Slavs should be closely related to the PTC "horizon" Slavs

    Crantz chronicle (772 AD)
    "Gens tum armis ferocissima ad Dravum Nuciamque amnes habitans, Sclavi sive Venedi communi dicti vocabulo, proprio Charini sive Chariones, in Italiam ingenti multitudine."

    “A people extremely ferocious in war at this time were the Slavs [Sclavi] or Wends [Venedi], to use the language of common speech, or, to use their own, the Charini or Chariones [Carantanians], who lived on the rivers Drava and Mura (?). Into Italy with an immense multitude…”



    "Some of the handmade pottery found on the mountain hilltop site at Hemmaberg near Jaunstein in southern Austria has been classified as of the Prague type." (Archeologia Medievale, XXXVII, 2010)
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-28-2021 at 10:40 AM.

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  17. #2809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    These Carinthian Slavs should be closely related to the PTC "horizon" Slavs

    Crantz chronicle (772 AD)
    "Gens tum armis ferocissima ad Dravum Nuciamque amnes habitans, Sclavi sive Venedi communi dicti vocabulo, proprio Charini sive Chariones, in Italiam ingenti multitudine."

    “A people extremely ferocious in war at this time were the Slavs [Sclavi] or Wends [Venedi], to use the language of common speech, or, to use their own, the Charini or Chariones [Carantanians], who lived on the rivers Drava and Mura (?). Into Italy with an immense multitude…”



    "Some of the handmade pottery found on the mountain hilltop site at Hemmaberg near Jaunstein in southern Austria has been classified as of the Prague type." (Archeologia Medievale, XXXVII, 2010)
    And to make these ethnonym things eve more complicated...

    In Kärnten (Karantia) there existed a Croatian parish already in the 10th century. Old manuscripts call it pagus Crouuati, which is obviously derived from the Croatian name (= Croatian parish). The name appears even in Royal charters. According to investigations of Felicetti this parish of `pagus Crouuati' spread precisely along the Gosposvetsko polje, where the earliest Slavic Princes of Karantia had a seat. It included also the region of today's Klagenfurt (Celovec), capital of Karantia, together with the famous Church of Gospa Sveta (Maria Saal, Maria in Solio, Maria ad Karanten), probably the oldest Christian church in the region.
    https://croatianhistory.net/etf/et01.html

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  19. #2810
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    "Our results showed marked craniometrical similarities between early medieval Croat and medieval Polish series. Among all of the 39 analyzed European sites, the two exhibiting the greatest similarities were Nin, a site representing the nucleus of the early medieval Croat state (72), and Cedynia, a Polish site located approximately 75 km south of the Baltic Sea. Conversely, the 5 analyzed Iranian sites exhibited no similarity with the early medieval Croat sites and were all located in the diametrically opposite part of the scatter plot. These results suggest that early medieval Croats were of Slavic ancestry, and that early medieval Croats and Poles at one time shared a common homeland."

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_expansion

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