Page 68 of 157 FirstFirst ... 1858666768697078118 ... LastLast
Results 671 to 680 of 1562

Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #671
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,096
    Ethnicity
    Venetharum natio populosa
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L1029>YP263>Y2912*
    mtDNA (M)
    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    "Geographical names are extremely helpful in giving evidence of early settlements and their inhabitants due to their solid anchorage in the landscape, even in the case of population changes. Through the investigation of these place names, information can be gathered not only on the name giver, but also on the settlers who took on the names later on. Therefore, it is considered that any linguistic investigation has to start from the river and place names of a region. The utilization of geographical names yields the following findings: — The centre of Old Slavic names is situated on the northern slope of the Carpathian Mountains, approximately between Bukovina and Krakow; it is based on a substrate of older, Indo-European hydronyms. — The expansion of the East Slavic tribes bypasses the Pripyat Marshes and extends further through Central Russia and especially to the North and the East. — West Slavic settlers reach their new settlement areas through migration from Bohemia and further on to Saxonia and Thuringia, and also through Western Poland to Brandenburg and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. — The migration of the South Slavs takes place in two big, yet separate flows, on the one hand through the Moravian Gate to Slovenia, Hungary and Croatia, and on the other hand on the Eastern edge of the Carpathian Mountains to Serbia and Bulgaria".

    https://onomastica.ijp.pan.pl/index....ticle/view/214
    Google translate:
    "According to the bioarchaeologist, probably the Czech Slavic population, which came to our territory [Czechia] in the 5th and 6th centuries, comes from the Polish-Ukrainian area north of the Carpathian arch. "

    https://www.idnes.cz/technet/veda/ro...35551_veda_vov

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Waldemar For This Useful Post:

     ambron (05-18-2021),  etrusco (05-18-2021),  JMcB (05-18-2021),  JoeyP37 (05-18-2021),  leonardo (05-18-2021),  Riverman (05-18-2021),  Ryukendo (06-03-2021)

  3. #672
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,867
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Google translate:
    "According to the bioarchaeologist, probably the Czech Slavic population, which came to our territory [Czechia] in the 5th and 6th centuries, comes from the Polish-Ukrainian area north of the Carpathian arch. "

    https://www.idnes.cz/technet/veda/ro...35551_veda_vov
    Quoting him what interests me most is actually the ratio of Slavic : Germanic : pre-Slavic-Germanic patrilinear ancestry in the region and what kind of people these were. Its also relevant for the Slavic homeland debate, because without knowing all the neighbours, even the closely related, yet not identical ones, how can anyone be able to distinguish Slavs from non-Slavs? In the end it might be an diagnosis of exclusion primarily.

    Btw., a linguistic question: Do you understand spoken Czech?
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-18-2021 at 11:37 AM.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (05-18-2021),  Tomenable (05-18-2021)

  5. #673
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,096
    Ethnicity
    Venetharum natio populosa
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L1029>YP263>Y2912*
    mtDNA (M)
    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Do you understand spoken Czech?
    Not really.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Waldemar For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (05-18-2021),  Riverman (05-18-2021)

  7. #674
    Registered Users
    Posts
    216

    Michał, note that I wrote this in the context of the Proto-Slavic homeland in Belarus and northern Ukraine. And in this case, both linguists speak with exactly one voice.

    Riverman, the actual linguistic research is actually just beginning, because only recently have been (and are still being created) detailed toponymic dictionaries of the Slavic lands.

    Colleagues, I am of the same opinion - the most important thing is multidisciplinary research. However, we need to know the place of each science in such research. It cannot be, as before, that the archaeolds usurp the sole right to decide on ethnolinguistic issues.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ambron For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (05-18-2021),  Tomenable (05-18-2021)

  9. #675
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,521
    Sex
    Location
    Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a

    Poland European Union Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    (...) therefore linguistics has the decisive voice here (...)
    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    I wrote this in the context of the Proto-Slavic homeland in Belarus and northern Ukraine. And in this case, both linguists speak with exactly one voice.
    But don't most of the linguists argue for an Eastern European homeland?

    Video with Polish subtitles:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-18-2021 at 12:13 PM.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (05-18-2021),  Riverman (05-18-2021)

  11. #676
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,066
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    N - Z16980

    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Michał, note that I wrote this in the context of the Proto-Slavic homeland in Belarus and northern Ukraine. And in this case, both linguists speak with exactly one voice.

    Riverman, the actual linguistic research is actually just beginning, because only recently have been (and are still being created) detailed toponymic dictionaries of the Slavic lands.

    Colleagues, I am of the same opinion - the most important thing is multidisciplinary research. However, we need to know the place of each science in such research. It cannot be, as before, that the archaeolds usurp the sole right to decide on ethnolinguistic issues.
    If we want to locate a Balto-Slavic dialect that first diverged towards Slavic (~1000 BCE or so) then we donít need to look for Proto-Slavic toponyms, but rather for toponyms showing that particular stage of language.
    If we want to locate first time and place Proto-Slavic was spoken (dating disputed but it was spoken well after 500 AD) then we need to look for Proto-Slavic toponyms.

  12. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to parastais For This Useful Post:

     Alain (05-18-2021),  altvred (05-18-2021),  Coldmountains (05-18-2021),  leonardo (05-18-2021),  Riverman (05-18-2021),  Tomenable (05-18-2021)

  13. #677
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,521
    Sex
    Location
    Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a

    Poland European Union Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Btw., a linguistic question: Do you understand spoken Czech?
    There are many identical or similar words, but they often have very different meaning, it is hilarious.

    For instance Czech sklep vs. our sklep - cellar vs. shop.

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     altvred (05-18-2021),  JMcB (05-18-2021),  Riverman (05-18-2021),  Waldemar (05-18-2021)

  15. #678
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,347
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Indo-Iranian/Balto-Slavic
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93 (Indo-Aryan)
    mtDNA (M)
    H28/W(M) : H1b5
    Y-DNA (M)
    Wife (P) : R1a-Z280

    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Michał, note that I wrote this in the context of the Proto-Slavic homeland in Belarus and northern Ukraine. And in this case, both linguists speak with exactly one voice.

    Riverman, the actual linguistic research is actually just beginning, because only recently have been (and are still being created) detailed toponymic dictionaries of the Slavic lands.

    Colleagues, I am of the same opinion - the most important thing is multidisciplinary research. However, we need to know the place of each science in such research. It cannot be, as before, that the archaeolds usurp the sole right to decide on ethnolinguistic issues.
    So Belarus/Ukraine is not proto-Slavic because of very disputed "Baltic" hydronyms (what is the historical evidence for Balts in Ukraine or even in Moldavia/the balkan like some of these linguists claim) but East Germany/Bohemia/Poland (not the most eastern part) was Proto-Slavic despite having documented presence of East Germanic, Celtic, Welzin-like people, who were genetically, linguistically and culturally very different from Proto-Slavs compared to Balts.

    well this scenario would be quite of a sensation at least...

  16. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     Просигој (05-18-2021),  altvred (05-18-2021),  JMcB (05-18-2021),  leonardo (05-18-2021),  Michał (05-18-2021),  Riverman (05-18-2021)

  17. #679
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,867
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    So Belarus/Ukraine is not proto-Slavic because of very disputed "Baltic" hydronyms (what is the historical evidence for Balts in Ukraine or even in Moldavia/the balkan like some of these linguists claim) but East Germany/Bohemia/Poland (not the most eastern part) was Proto-Slavic despite having documented presence of East Germanic, Celtic, Welzin-like people, who were genetically, linguistically and culturally very different from Proto-Slavs compared to Balts.
    That's a good argument, because like I wrote before Toponyms are no safe bet in a multi-layered region. Like in some places where Celts lived in Austria, there is not much left, in others even deeper, old Indoeuropean-Illyrian strata can be found. That's because any kind of transmission of toponyms needs a significant presence of the earlier inhabitants and at least a tendency the will of the conquerors to assimilate those. If the preceding people left the place, en gros, and the new settlers preferred to elimiate the remains, did not interact, or did even prefer their own terms, the older layers can get lost. For example, if the Proto-Slavs lived in a region which they left, as a people, and newly incoming people, like Balts, settled down there, its possible that the whole stratum being lost. While when the Slavs "came back", they assimilated and interacted with locals, from which they got terms from.
    I can just say from areas in Austria where such circumstances are a fact. Going by the oldest layers, some parts of Austria would be pretty close to very "early Slavic", what they surely were not, because we know other people lived there before, but they either disappeared completely or had a rather weak impact and limited interaction with the then dominant Slavic tribes.
    Unlike archaeological strata, linguistic strata can be completely extinguished with the people which spoke the language. Same applies if they simply left without much interaction with those coming after them.

  18. #680
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,096
    Ethnicity
    Venetharum natio populosa
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L1029>YP263>Y2912*
    mtDNA (M)
    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Going by the oldest layers, some parts of Austria would be pretty close to very "early Slavic", what they surely were not, because we know other people lived there before
    What "oldest layers" do you have in mind? Slavic presence in today's Austria is well documented.

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...lace_names.jpg

    Jaunstein/Podjuna: (Early)-Mediaeval Cemetery. Research into the lived environment of Slavic populations in the eastern Alpine region - https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/resea...lation-studies
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-18-2021 at 12:52 PM.

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Waldemar For This Useful Post:

     Mis (05-20-2021)

Page 68 of 157 FirstFirst ... 1858666768697078118 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Medieval Pashtun Samples
    By J Man in forum Central
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-28-2020, 05:37 AM
  2. G25 Distance Maps to selected Early Medieval Samples
    By ph2ter in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 05-09-2020, 02:33 PM
  3. Early Medieval Czech DNA (years 600-900 AD)
    By Tomenable in forum Central
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 04-19-2018, 01:07 PM
  4. Early Medieval Germanic barrow burials
    By JonikW in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-31-2018, 12:34 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-27-2016, 06:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •