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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Being behind a paywall, I really can't get the gist of the article. Are they inferring that this is possibly two different distinct populations or perhaps it is a non Wielbark Culture population alone?
    They don't really know what was going on. Here is the relevant fragment:
    "During this construction work, charcoals from different chronological and cultural units would have been mixed together. If so, it has implications for our interpretation of cultural processes in the late stage of the Migration period and EarlyMiddle Ages: it was thought that these lands had been uninhabited, and this leaves an open question. Who settled there between the end of the 5th century and the beginning of the 7th centuryAD? Did Goths of the Wielbark culture remain in this area? Did a new unknown tribe of Late Germanic people appear? Infrequent material typical of the latter group was found at the site. It is unlikely that these buildings were made by the first Slavic people, who usually did not build such things (Parczewski 1988, 1993; Godłowski 2000; Bemmann and Parczewski 2005). In addition, the palynological analyses performed so far near the Ulów site 3 (Pidek, unpublished) have not helped in detecting the existence of the inhabitance during the Migration Period due to the lack of pollen zones dated to this period."
    Last edited by Michał; 06-20-2021 at 11:03 AM.

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    A tangential question to the central theme of the thread.

    Has there been any work done worth reading on the inner workings of the Avar Khaganate - more specifically, the relationship between Slavs and Avars?

    I know that the Avars are mentioned in the Primary Chronicles (as Obri/о́бры). However, the writer was so far removed in time and place from the discussed subject that I feel that much of it has been inferred from contemporary Kievan-Cuman relations.

    I don't want to paint too rosy a picture of that association, but hypothetically Slavic would have had an excellent avenue to spread into the Pannonian plain as the lingua franca of the Avar state.
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    Michał, Panonia, Wallachia, the Polish-Ukrainian Subcarpathian and Slovakia are not many homelands, but only one homeland - the Carpathian homeland. After all, this is a smaller area than the combined basin of Pripyat and the middle Dnieper, from where the Slavs allegedly originated, according to the supporters of the Pripyat theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    A tangential question to the central theme of the thread.

    Has there been any work done worth reading on the inner workings of the Avar Khaganate - more specifically, the relationship between Slavs and Avars?

    I know that the Avars are mentioned in the Primary Chronicles (as Obri/о́бры). However, the writer was so far removed in time and place from the discussed subject that I feel that much of it has been inferred from contemporary Kievan-Cuman relations.

    I don't want to paint too rosy a picture of that association, but hypothetically Slavic would have had an excellent avenue to spread into the Pannonian plain as the lingua franca of the Avar state.
    That the relationship was very, very bad doesn't mean the outcome couldn't be that Slavic spread as the lingua franca, because the Slavs were the base of the Avar state other than the military, which was under the total control of the Avar minority. Everything I ever read about the relations of Slavs and Avars points to them being essentially in a hostile or master and slave relationship. That doesn't mean there were, between some tribes and elites, never more friendly relations, but the Slavs took, apparently, every opportunity to get rid of the Avars, even if this was for being the subject of another people, like the Franks. This alone tells you something about how good they cooperated.
    Another hint is the military strategy of the Avars, which used the Slavic foot soldiers as cannon fodder and bait, while keeping their own forces in reserve for the decisive, swift blow to the enemy. This was similar as to how the Mongols used Chinese soldiers and prisoners, at times even more as living shields rather than allies.
    Yet another fact is that many Slavic tribes tried to evade and flee from the Avars at all costs, which caused a large portion of the Slavic migrations, especially those to the South and into mountainous terrain.

    The Turko-Mongol conquests too were among the most destructive events for the Islamic world to this day, yet, on the long run and in some regions, the later established Turkic and Mongol converts and dynasties helped to spread Islam to regions the Arabs never conquered and probably would have never conquered on their own.
    I doubt that the Avar elite spoke Slavic as their mother tongue though, because, usually, a linguistic barrier helps to keep up the quite strict ethnosocial and caste-like barrier which seems to have been present almost to their end.

    The situation in the Avar Khaganat was fundamentally different from that in the later Magyar state, which integrated different ethnicities fairly early on and on a much broader scale. The ancient DNA results itself prove the difference between Avars and Magyars.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-20-2021 at 10:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That the relationship was very, very bad doesn't mean the outcome couldn't be that Slavic spread as the lingua franca, because the Slavs were the base of the Avar state other than the military, which was under the total control of the Avar minority. Everything I ever read about the relations of Slavs and Avars points to them being essentially in a hostile or master and slave relationship. That doesn't mean there were, between some tribes and elites, never more friendly relations, but the Slavs took, apparently, every opportunity to get rid of the Avars, even if this was for being the subject of another people, like the Franks. This alone tells you something about how good they cooperated.
    Another hint is the military strategy of the Avars, which used the Slavic foot soldiers as cannon fodder and bait, while keeping their own forces in reserve for the decisive, swift blow to the enemy. This was similar as to how the Mongols used Chinese soldiers and prisoners, at times even more as living shields rather than allies.
    Yet another fact is that many Slavic tribes tried to evade and flee from the Avars at all costs, which caused a large portion of the Slavic migrations, especially those to the South and into mountainous terrain.

    The Turko-Mongol conquests too were among the most destructive events for the Islamic world to this day, yet, on the long run and in some regions, the later established Turkic and Mongol converts and dynasties helped to spread Islam to regions the Arabs never conquered and probably would have never conquered on their own.
    I doubt that the Avar elite spoke Slavic as their mother tongue though, because, usually, a linguistic barrier helps to keep up the quite strict ethnosocial and caste-like barrier which seems to have been present almost to their end.

    The situation in the Avar Khaganat was fundamentally different from that in the later Magyar state, which integrated different ethnicities fairly early on and on a much broader scale. The ancient DNA results itself prove the difference between Avars and Magyars.
    Maybe not among Avars, but, the adaption of Slavic as a lingua franca among Bulgars definitely happened. Otherwise they wouldn't have endured through the 1st or 2nd empires whilst simultaneously passing their name to a largely Slavic majority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Michał, Panonia, Wallachia, the Polish-Ukrainian Subcarpathian and Slovakia are not many homelands, but only one homeland - the Carpathian homeland. After all, this is a smaller area than the combined basin of Pripyat and the middle Dnieper, from where the Slavs allegedly originated, according to the supporters of the Pripyat theory.
    Either I am misunderstanding your words or you're wrong. I outlined these territories and Carpatian region is not smaller are than Pripyat and Middle Dnieper, even taking into account map distortions:


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    Quote Originally Posted by KolanGoyimski View Post
    No. And I don't care what and who you read from.
    The Romans bribed the Avars to fight the Slavs. These Avars realized that's not gonna work out for them, so they allied and together overran the Balkans. Slavs obviously left a much bigger impact in the Balkans than these Avars. And I got news for you, slaves and cannon fodder don't do that.

    If Slavs were such weak, slave, cannon fodder, why didn't the Romans ever conquer and rule over them and their territory? The most powerful empire of that time, what happened? All of Eastern Europe through all of those centuries was never interesting to their empire's expansion and conquering, and incorporating slaves and cannon fodder? I think not.
    Large portions of the Slavs were free and no subjects to the Avars, especially those tribes which moved, to evade the Avars, further South and were the ancestors of the modern South Slavic groups.
    The big advantage of the Avars was their heavy and Light cavalry, most likely already with stir-ups, which they might have introduced to Central Europe.
    That means the Slavs were no match for them in the open flatlands, especially the Pannonian steppe. In other terrain, things might have been different.
    You can read up yourself and can come to different conclusions, but that Slavs and Avars were, more often than not, no friends and allies on equal terms seems to be quite obvious for me.
    They didn't just crush the Slavs by the way, but until the Europeans adapted to their strategy almost everybody else too, like Germanics and Greco-Romans.

    Bulgarians are indeed a different matter which fits relatively more symbiotic relationship much better.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-21-2021 at 01:07 AM.

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    Rozenfeld, in both cases the proposed area of the Slavic homeland is defined very vaguely, so it can be marked differently on the map. Therefore, we can assume that the area of both areas is comparable.

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    "The centre of Old Slavic names is situated on the northern slope of the Carpathian Mountains, approximately between Bukovina and Krakow."


    "Some writers state that these regions, as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, the Venedi, the Sciri, and the Hirri (...)"

    "Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-21-2021 at 05:57 AM.

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    Waldemar, so Babik's research only moves this circle slightly to the left.

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