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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Parastais, you can, of course, make various speculations about the movements of the Balto-Slavic tribes during the Bronze Age, but that is not important to the heart of the problem. All Balts and Northern Slavs have uniform source of closest common ancestors, as shown by IBD segments.
    Yeap and that source is Proto-Balto-Slavic ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    With ADMIXTOOLS, it seems to be the other way around, Lithuania_BA + Barcin/EEF is a better fit than Latvia_BA + EEF though overall the p-values for that model are still low.

     





















    At least partially, the higher p-values are explained by there being fewer Lithuania_BA than Latvia_BA samples, but it's also likely that the HG admixture in Lativa_BA is too high for it to be used to model modern Slavic and Baltic populations.
    Any genetic model also has to make historical sense and Latvia/Estonia is pretty much irrelevant for the formation of Proto-Slavs with no evidence for any migration from there into Proto-Slavic areas. Lithuania_BA is surely more relevant but probably also far away from perfect. It is also unlikely that Lithuania_BA types around 0-1500 B.C directly mied with pure EEF people in East Europe. Rather Proto-Slavs were on a cline with Lithuania_BA and other Baltic_BA groups but on the most EEF-Shifted end of the cline. Proto-Slavs formed unlike Balts_BA in areas close to former GAC/TRB so EEF influences were naturally higher than in Lithuania or Latvia which rather had a local HG substrate lacking EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Any genetic model also has to make historical sense and Latvia/Estonia is pretty much irrelevant for the formation of Proto-Slavs with no evidence for any migration from there into Proto-Slavic areas. Lithuania_BA is surely more relevant but probably also far away from perfect. It is also unlikely that Lithuania_BA types around 0-1500 B.C directly mied with pure EEF people in East Europe. Rather Proto-Slavs were on a cline with Lithuania_BA and other Baltic_BA groups but on the most EEF-Shifted end of the cline. Proto-Slavs formed unlike Balts_BA in areas close to former GAC/TRB so EEF influences were naturally higher than in Lithuania or Latvia which rather had a local HG substrate lacking EEF.
    Wouldn't the bold part reconcile with the theory that puts the slavic urheimat in Poland (Przeworsk culture for example). I'm just asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Wouldn't the bold part reconcile with the theory that puts the slavic urheimat in Poland (Przeworsk culture for example). I'm just asking.
    well i was rather talking about Belarus and North Ukraine which is unsampled so far and was already before dna testing seen as most likely homeland of Slavs. Poland had surely Balto-Slavic influences in the eastern part but i doubt these were Proto-Slavs.

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    Belarusians and northern Ukrainians became Slavs only at the end of the 1st millennium CE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geborgenheit View Post
    Do you think that Lithuanians are anything different from Latvians or Estonians?
    In big lines No.
    In small lines Latvians are more extreme than Lithuanians. Estonians have a push towards Finns.

    Everything else is a guess.
    Estonians - “East Balto-Slavs + West Uralics” + local Baltic_BA + some Germanic vibe + later Latvian + later Slavic
    Latvians - “East Balts” + local Baltic_BA + some Estonian + later Slavic
    Lithuanians - like Latvians but more “East Balts”, less local Baltic_BA, no Estonian, more(?) “later Slavic”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Belarusians and northern Ukrainians became Slavs only at the end of the 1st millennium CE.
    New paradigm disagrees with this opinion.
    Now Kiev culture is seen as Pre-Proto-Slavic, with different post-Kiev cultures spanning further North including Belarus. Later becoming Pskov Long Barrows, etc.
    This also fits nicely with new linguistic finds of archaic forms of pre-Proto-Slavic loanwords (dated as early as 300 AD by some estimates) in Finnic languages. Another Interesting linguistic find is that Finnic languages have the most archaic forms of Slavic loans, Latvian somewhat less and Lithuanian has least archaic Slavic loanwords. Which is yet to find a good interpretation..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    A couple things I've noticed regarding the whole proto-Slavs being Baltic_BA-like(in having their drift mostly) but more southern.

    1. Latvia_BA(more HG, less Steppe and Farmer) is prefered over Lithuania_BA strangely enough.

    2. The non-Baltic_BA part seems quite southern, Unetice and other BA east-central European samples give bad fits.

     

    Target: Belarusian
    Distance: 1.2050% / 0.01205037
    65.4 Baltic_LVA_BA
    29.0 HRV_IA
    3.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA
    2.6 DNK_Sealand_IA
    0.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
    0.0 CZE_Unetice_EBA

    Croatia_IA gives a great fit, replacing it with eastern Hallstatt does not work too well.

    Target: Belarusian
    Distance: 2.3198% / 0.02319752
    54.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
    27.4 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    10.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    4.8 Baltic_LTU_BA
    3.6 KAZ_Nomad_MA
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Forcing it to take Lithuania_BA significantly worsens the fit.

    Target: Belarusian
    Distance: 2.5003% / 0.02500280
    76.8 Baltic_LTU_BA
    20.8 HRV_IA
    2.4 KAZ_Nomad_MA
    0.0 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Removing Croatia_IA and forcing it to take a more northern source of admixture fails aswell.

    Target: Belarusian
    Distance: 2.8054% / 0.02805373
    45.0 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    43.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    9.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
    2.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Can you do the same, but with Lithuanians (and Latvians) instead of Belarus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Can you do the same, but with Lithuanians (and Latvians) instead of Belarus?
    Sure. But first let me make it clear that I don't think proto-Slavs or even proto-Balts were identical to Latvia_BA, I thought I made that clear in my last post that I'm only using these samples for their Balto-Slavic drift, as it can't be denied that they harbour some significant amount of Balto-Slavic admixture, they are even more drifted than modern day Balts.

     

    Latvia_BA is still strongly prefered over Lithuania_BA. But when it comes to the non-Baltic_BA source Latvians can actually be modelled successfully with just Unetice and the fit is only slightly worse without Croatia_IA. Some of the Lithuanian averages get decent fit without Croatia_IA aswell but not all.

    Target: Latvian
    Distance: 1.2732% / 0.01273199
    74.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    16.4 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    8.0 HRV_IA
    0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
    0.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Target: Lithuanian_PA
    Distance: 1.5400% / 0.01539966
    65.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
    21.8 HRV_IA
    12.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
    0.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Forcing out Latvia_BA fails like with Belarusians.

    Target: Latvian
    Distance: 2.7209% / 0.02720863
    89.8 Baltic_LTU_BA
    9.6 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA
    0.0 HRV_IA

    Target: Lithuanian_PA
    Distance: 2.8224% / 0.02822355
    76.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
    13.8 HRV_IA
    9.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Taking out Hallstatt and Croatia_IA actually does not affect the fit that much for Latvians, but more so for Lit_PA

    Target: Latvian
    Distance: 1.4514% / 0.01451433
    68.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
    27.6 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    3.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
    0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Target: Lithuanian_PA
    Distance: 2.4503% / 0.02450298
    53.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    45.6 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

    Lit_PZ and Lit_RZ do get acceptable fits without Croatia_IA/Hallstatt.

    Target: Lithuanian_PZ
    Distance: 1.7454% / 0.01745371
    59.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    18.6 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    12.4 Baltic_LTU_BA
    9.0 DNK_Sealand_IA
    0.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    Target: Lithuanian_SZ
    Distance: 1.7607% / 0.01760735
    69.2 Baltic_LVA_BA
    30.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
    0.0 DNK_Sealand_IA

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    Are these Kashubian samples?
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    Modern_Polish_Pomerania_Kashubia,0.133173,0.131003 ,0.076178,0.059755,0.036622,0.023706,0.001645,0.00 5538,0.007772,-0.019499,0.00341,-0.010341,0.00773,0.011836,0.008143,-0.008353,-0.014473,-0.002787,0.006034,-0.000125,0.002745,-0.006059,0.010106,-0.004579,0.004311
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    Modern_Polish_Pomerania_Kashubia,0.133173,0.117801 ,0.064488,0.063954,0.040623,0.025937,0.007285,0.01 4538,-0.001432,-0.02041,-0.003735,-0.006444,0.009663,0.003991,-0.007329,0.001724,0.01017,-0.004814,0.00088,0.003752,-0.006364,0.000866,0.002465,0.00976,-0.00946
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    Modern_Polish_Pomerania_Kociewie,0.126344,0.121864 ,0.07203,0.058786,0.037545,0.023148,0.013866,0.004 615,-0.000205,-0.018588,-0.004709,-0.004046,0.002973,0.010184,-0.003664,0.010607,0.022687,0.002027,0.005279,0.007 003,-0.003119,-0.00643,0.013064,0.00012,-0.001916
    Medieval_Bodzia_Kuyavia:VK153,0.142279,0.12491,0.0 82212,0.066861,0.030467,0.034582,-0.00235,0.005077,0.006136,-0.019681,-0.000974,0.002698,0.000892,0.015827,-0.009636,0.023468,0.007302,-0.008868,0.016969,0.005628,-0.012478,0.005317,-0.011585,-0.006989,-0.000718
    Medieval_Bodzia_Kuyavia:VK154,0.122929,0.131003,0. 080327,0.074936,0.054779,0.033467,0.004935,0.00923 ,0.001432,-0.023326,-0.006658,-0.003447,0.004311,0.014038,0.005022,0.000928,0.005 215,-0.004561,0.000754,0.004127,0.003244,-0.004575,0.007148,0.00735,0.003592
    Medieval_Bodzia_Kuyavia:VK155,0.134311,0.121864,0. 075424,0.067184,0.045239,0.031794,-0.018096,0.005769,0.000409,-0.025149,-0.01153,-0.001199,0.009663,0.010735,-0.00475,-0.006895,-0.007562,-0.00038,-0.002514,0.005753,0.002121,-0.011376,0.001602,0.00253,-0.00467
    Medieval_Bodzia_Kuyavia:VK156,0.133173,0.127957,0. 084098,0.063308,0.043393,0.017849,0.00611,0.005307 ,-0.001432,-0.020775,-0.00341,-0.000749,0.00446,0.009083,-0.005157,0.011933,0.008084,-0.005574,0.006034,0.001626,0.001622,0.007048,0.006 902,-0.000241,0.004191
    Medieval_Bodzia_Kuyavia:VK157,0.125205,0.131003,0. 081458,0.068799,0.048624,0.021753,0.00282,0.009,0. 003681,-0.019864,-0.000162,-0.002398,0.017096,0.016652,0,-0.008618,-0.009257,-0.002787,0.002137,0.003252,0.006738,-0.001607,-0.000986,-0.006386,0.002155
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