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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Parastais

    “Irregular” Sound Substitutions in the Substrate Toponymy. New Constribution to the Chronology and Processing of the Linguistic Slavicization of the Historical Slavia Orientalis.

    The paper deals with the problem of unexpected phonemic sequences encountered sometimes in East Slavic toponyms suspected of being borrowed from the extinct autochthonous Pre-Slavic languages of the Pripet and Upper Dnieper basins (and their vicinities), supposedly related to Balto-Slavic. These instances can be considered as exceptions to several Late Common Slavic sound laws (hushing spirants continuing IE palatovelars, as in Lithuanian, instead of whistling ones; the second palatalization of velars instead of the expected first one; velars not changed to affricates and / or spirants before the reflexes of the vocalisms *e, *ě or *ь), suggesting that the respective names were borrowed into East Slavic from local linguistic substrates after the sound laws in question had been completed. The most controversial issue are the apparently non-monophthongized diphthongs of various types (on, o etc. occurring before consonants), which do posit certain phonotactic problems.

    The results obtained in the paper support the view, expressed by some archaeologists, that the linguistic Slavicization of these areas (including Volhynia), earlier considered as the geographical point of departure of Slavic even by some linguists, was a long and continuous process which was not completed before the end of the 1st millennium AD.

    https://www.ejournals.eu/PKKS/2019/Vol-XV/art/15244/
    Yes, Kiev was not post-Proto-Slavic. Not to mention East Slavic. It was Pre-Slavic so it spread a language that would later become Slavic, but was on the way to Slavic. Earliest Slavic loans into Finnic languages came from stage named Early Middle Slavic, which was centuries before Proto-Slavic.
    So languages that developed from that stage could end up Slavic or develop their own way (perhaps Kriviches), before they got properly Slavified.

    https://blogs.helsinki.fi/slavica-he...h27-Kallio.pdf

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    So you see for yourself that this does not mean anything:

    "All such archaeological correlations may even be too much to ask, as the total number of the suggested Early (Middle) Slavic loanwords in Early Proto-Finnic remains relatively limited and because many of them could rather be regarded as Balto-Slavic.
    As loanwords are indeed borrowed from people instead of peoples, all we basically really need is only one Early (Middle) Slavic speaking trader, who just happened to wander far enough to the north".

    Since loans are very unreliable, linguists nowadays infer ethnolinguistic geography mainly on the basis of toponymy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    So you see for yourself that this does not mean anything:

    "All such archaeological correlations may even be too much to ask, as the total number of the suggested Early (Middle) Slavic loanwords in Early Proto-Finnic remains relatively limited and because many of them could rather be regarded as Balto-Slavic.
    As loanwords are indeed borrowed from people instead of peoples, all we basically really need is only one Early (Middle) Slavic speaking trader, who just happened to wander far enough to the north".

    Since loans are very unreliable, linguists nowadays infer ethnolinguistic geography mainly on the basis of toponymy.
    Re toponyms.. There are two rivers mentioned in the article as being borrowed from archaic forms of Slavic. Dweinā -West Dvina (Daugava), conserved in Finnic as Veinā and Luga conserved in Finnic with form Laukka

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    The author explains these two hydronyms as follows:

    "As a matter of fact, it is not a recent idea that Slavic still had diphthongs when its speakers arrived among the Finnic speakers.

    Moreover, Vermeer (1986; 2000) has more recently advocated from a Slavic dialectological viewpoint, that a Finnic (or Baltic?) substrate delayed the monophthongization of diphthongs in the Pskov/Novgorod dialects which therefore failed to take part in the Second (regressive) Palatalization.

    Interestingly, Terent’ev (1990: 31–32) has already tried to postulate an early Slavic loanword stratum with diphthongs, in his view borrowed into Finnic from these Pskov/Novgorod dialects which he, however, calls ‘Krivičian’ (cf. Nikolaev 1988)".

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    "Geographical names are extremely helpful in giving evidence of early settlements and their inhabitants due to their solid anchorage in the landscape, even in the case of population changes. Through the investigation of these place names, information can be gathered not only on the name giver, but also on the settlers who took on the names later on. Therefore, it is considered that any linguistic investigation has to start from the river and place names of a region. The utilization of geographical names yields the following findings: — The centre of Old Slavic names is situated on the northern slope of the Carpathian Mountains, approximately between Bukovina and Krakow; it is based on a substrate of older, Indo-European hydronyms. — The expansion of the East Slavic tribes bypasses the Pripyat Marshes and extends further through Central Russia and especially to the North and the East. — West Slavic settlers reach their new settlement areas through migration from Bohemia and further on to Saxonia and Thuringia, and also through Western Poland to Brandenburg and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. — The migration of the South Slavs takes place in two big, yet separate flows, on the one hand through the Moravian Gate to Slovenia, Hungary and Croatia, and on the other hand on the Eastern edge of the Carpathian Mountains to Serbia and Bulgaria".

    https://onomastica.ijp.pan.pl/index....ticle/view/214

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    Overall, I see that people often forget the essence of the problem. The Proto-Slavic homeland is an ethnolinguistic issue. This is a geographic area where Proto-Slavic linguistic innovations were born. Pots and genes do not talk, therefore linguistics has the decisive voice here, and archeology and genetics are only auxiliary disciplines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Overall, I see that people often forget the essence of the problem. The Proto-Slavic homeland is an ethnolinguistic issue. This is a geographic area where Proto-Slavic linguistic innovations were born. Pots and genes do not talk, therefore linguistics has the decisive voice here, and archeology and genetics are only auxiliary disciplines.
    That is right, one thing is where the genetic cluster of the proto-slavs originated and that could be further north. At the end people who became slavic speakers were probably speakers of a baltoid/ more baltic like kind language. Baltic is probably the language closest to what CWC spoke originally. But regardless of dna these people BECAME SLAVIC SPEAKERS in the Przworsk/ Zaribintsy contact zone and the toponomastic is just another reminder of that.
    PROTO SLAVIC DNA= BALTIC BRONZE AGE + EEF* MORE STEPPE
    PROTO SLAVIC= PROTO BALTO SLAVIC + SOME CENTUM LANGUAGE SUBSTRATUM
    So the region you mentioned nicely fits the bill ( Przworsk had a celto-germanic component)
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-16-2021 at 08:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Overall, I see that people often forget the essence of the problem. The Proto-Slavic homeland is an ethnolinguistic issue. This is a geographic area where Proto-Slavic linguistic innovations were born. Pots and genes do not talk, therefore linguistics has the decisive voice here, and archeology and genetics are only auxiliary disciplines.
    Yes, and so far scientists had searched for Proto-Slavic and post-Proto-Slavic toponyms (1 millennium AD), but they had ignored that Balto-Slavic dialect that became Slavic split from Baltic before 1000 BCE.
    And there was no effort so far to locate that language or stage of language. Instead it was just put under “Baltic”.
    So, what I expect in next decade or so is that linguists should
    a) reconstruct early phonetic mutations of pre-Slavic
    b) re-do work on “Baltic” toponyms - investigating whether they had mutations that are alien to Baltic and on their way to Slavic. Also investigating whether they had mutations in their way to East Baltic and alien to Slavic, and same for West Baltic.

    I could make a bet that Kiev culture and its descendants toponymy is not going to disagree with language development on the way from Balto-Slavic to Slavic. But it is likely to be in disagreement with language development on the way from Balto-Slavic to East Baltic.

    But I also agree that final mutations into Proto-Slavic happened likely already in Prague Culture and related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    That is right, one thing is where the genetic cluster of the proto-slavs originated and that could be further north. At the end people who became slavic speakers were probably speakers of a baltoid/ more baltic like kind language. Baltic is probably the language closest to what CWC spoke originally. But regardless of dna these people BECAME SLAVIC SPEAKERS in the Przworsk/ Zaribintsy contact zone and the toponomastic is just another reminder of that.
    PROTO SLAVIC DNA= BALTIC BRONZE AGE + EEF* MORE STEPPE
    PROTO SLAVIC= PROTO BALTO SLAVIC + SOME CENTUM LANGUAGE SUBSTRATUM
    So the region you mentioned nicely fits the bill ( Przworsk had a celto-germanic component)
    It is nonsense, look at this:



    There are plenty of Slavic words in Vedic Sanskrit, words, which Balts do not have or have in a changed form. That common Vedic-Slavic forms came from CWC , and existed before CWC-R1aZ93 and CWC-Z283 tribes separated. Balto-Slavic language is not a real spoken language, it has never been reconstructed. It is a hypothesis only, so stop your BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    "Geographical names are extremely helpful in giving evidence of early settlements and their inhabitants due to their solid anchorage in the landscape, even in the case of population changes. Through the investigation of these place names, information can be gathered not only on the name giver, but also on the settlers who took on the names later on. Therefore, it is considered that any linguistic investigation has to start from the river and place names of a region. The utilization of geographical names yields the following findings: The centre of Old Slavic names is situated on the northern slope of the Carpathian Mountains, approximately between Bukovina and Krakow; it is based on a substrate of older, Indo-European hydronyms. The expansion of the East Slavic tribes bypasses the Pripyat Marshes and extends further through Central Russia and especially to the North and the East. West Slavic settlers reach their new settlement areas through migration from Bohemia and further on to Saxonia and Thuringia, and also through Western Poland to Brandenburg and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. The migration of the South Slavs takes place in two big, yet separate flows, on the one hand through the Moravian Gate to Slovenia, Hungary and Croatia, and on the other hand on the Eastern edge of the Carpathian Mountains to Serbia and Bulgaria".

    https://onomastica.ijp.pan.pl/index....ticle/view/214
    It looks like something like this?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W..._croatia01.png

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...les_9c_map.jpg

    The suggested migration routes make sense.

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