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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2861
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    Pohansko is mentioned in this two years old Croatian arcicle. The text is translated using https://www.webtran.eu.

    Petrinja is known as Bojna - Brekinjova ridge is currently, all, the most important archaeological site in the Republic of Croatia.
    (...)
    Now a well-known prince from Bojna warned that at that location there is an important political center from the Early Middle Ages, which in continental Croatia missed and material evidence could not be concretized. But, on Brekinjova ridge slowly comes out to light and the whole settlement.
    (...)
    Practically at the very beginning of the research appeared a spectacular grave number 4 - the prince of from Bojna. It was found that an unknown power man buried with luxurious silver, gilded spurments and with a fastening garnet, a gardening with a mountain crystal, which was probably in the function of the amulet, the gold solid of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine V. Koprins and clothing with gold threads.
    (...)
    The way of making spurs, which are from the luxury workshop within the Carolinian Empire, suggests that it is most likely buried after 830 but not much later. All of these items were exhibited at the Archaeological Museum in Zagreb and are now at the exhibition in the Sisak Museum. But in addition, the knife had a knife, whose restoration and preservation was not over yet and could not be presented to the public.
    (...)
    "This is indeed, a new chapter of Croatian history. It is about continental Croatia where we have very little findings from that period, we do not have traces from written sources too and our very situation has so far been unclear for that period. This is really extremely important, especially because we find parallels with the area on the Croatian Principality in Dalmatia - says Dr. sc. Marijana Krmpotić speaking of the diocese at Knin, the church site, where he is in the basilica of St. Mary found a sarcophagus with the remains of another prince, which had almost identical funeral equipment like those with the prince from Bojna.
    (...)
    Two wells have been found so far, two wells have been found, the defense structures that have expanded on several occasions, probably accompanying the spread of the settlement itself, as well as the remains, are presumed, housing facilities. Some objects were larger and were partly buried, while others were overhead or shallowly buried. In these facilities, but also beside them, the hearths were also found. Examples of similar defense structures and facilities were found in Pohansko, in South Czech Republic, at the locality of the Old Slavic settlement from the 9th to the 11th century. The ceramic dishes, mainly pots, and a comb for linen or wool are found in the facilities and a string of iron needles. The ceramic is manually made or on the slow rotating potter and is the most similar to the group of Drava - Mura - Sava.

    However, it is certain that elements of pagan rituals were found on the site, such as breaking the dishes at the burial and ignition of fire above or inside the grave. These rituals are linked to the pagan ritual of carmine, the so-called "strava", which served the evil spirits. Traces of fire are found in 13 investigated tombs.

    - But on the other hand, these pagan elements can be kept in the community 100, 200 years after the acceptance of Christianity, so it is difficult to say what Christian is, and what the pagan burial - notes the research leader of Dr. Krmpotić and points out that the next year of the research may be clear these doubts given that archaeologists now cross the settled part where more residential buildings are expected.

    After a complete research, the population of the settlement whose community experienced numerous wars. In addition to the traces of injury, it is a community that wars and battles are not foreign, point to a random finding from the site - a sword that has found one of the quarry workers and left it to the state. This and other metal objects have been processed by the Sisak Neven Peko City Museum and Doracic from the Archaeological Museum in Zagreb, saying that in the case of a sword is a mastery work, produced in the Carolinian Empire at the end of the 8th or 9th century.


    The whole article in Croatian is here: https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/knez...ediste-1321149 .
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 07-31-2021 at 12:16 PM.

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  3. #2862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Pohansko is mentioned in this two years old Croatian arcicle. The text is translated using https://www.webtran.eu.
    Petrinja is known as Bojna - Brekinjova ridge is currently, all, the most important archaeological site in the Republic of Croatia.
    (...)
    Now a well-known prince from Bojna warned that at that location there is an important political center from the Early Middle Ages, which in continental Croatia missed and material evidence could not be concretized. But, on Brekinjova ridge slowly comes out to light and the whole settlement.
    (...)
    Practically at the very beginning of the research appeared a spectacular grave number 4 - the prince of from Bojna. It was found that an unknown power man buried with luxurious silver, gilded spurments and with a fastening garnet, a gardening with a mountain crystal, which was probably in the function of the amulet, the gold solid of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine V. Koprins and clothing with gold threads.
    (...)
    The way of making spurs, which are from the luxury workshop within the Carolinian Empire, suggests that it is most likely buried after 830 but not much later. All of these items were exhibited at the Archaeological Museum in Zagreb and are now at the exhibition in the Sisak Museum. But in addition, the knife had a knife, whose restoration and preservation was not over yet and could not be presented to the public.
    (...)
    "This is indeed, a new chapter of Croatian history. It is about continental Croatia where we have very little findings from that period, we do not have traces from written sources too and our very situation has so far been unclear for that period. This is really extremely important, especially because we find parallels with the area on the Croatian Principality in Dalmatia - says Dr. sc. Marijana Krmpotić speaking of the diocese at Knin, the church site, where he is in the basilica of St. Mary found a sarcophagus with the remains of another prince, which had almost identical funeral equipment like those with the prince from Bojna.
    (...)
    Two wells have been found so far, two wells have been found, the defense structures that have expanded on several occasions, probably accompanying the spread of the settlement itself, as well as the remains, are presumed, housing facilities. Some objects were larger and were partly buried, while others were overhead or shallowly buried. In these facilities, but also beside them, the hearths were also found. Examples of similar defense structures and facilities were found in Pohansko, in South Czech Republic, at the locality of the Old Slavic settlement from the 9th to the 11th century. The ceramic dishes, mainly pots, and a comb for linen or wool are found in the facilities and a string of iron needles. The ceramic is manually made or on the slow rotating potter and is the most similar to the group of Drava - Mura - Sava.
    However, it is certain that elements of pagan rituals were found on the site, such as breaking the dishes at the burial and ignition of fire above or inside the grave. These rituals are linked to the pagan ritual of carmine, the so-called "strava", which served the evil spirits. Traces of fire are found in 13 investigated tombs.

    - But on the other hand, these pagan elements can be kept in the community 100, 200 years after the acceptance of Christianity, so it is difficult to say what Christian is, and what the pagan burial - notes the research leader of Dr. Krmpotić and points out that the next year of the research may be clear these doubts given that archaeologists now cross the settled part where more residential buildings are expected.

    After a complete research, the population of the settlement whose community experienced numerous wars. In addition to the traces of injury, it is a community that wars and battles are not foreign, point to a random finding from the site - a sword that has found one of the quarry workers and left it to the state. This and other metal objects have been processed by the Sisak Neven Peko City Museum and Doracic from the Archaeological Museum in Zagreb, saying that in the case of a sword is a mastery work, produced in the Carolinian Empire at the end of the 8th or 9th century.


    The whole article in Croatian is here: https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/knez...ediste-1321149 .
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    Some simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps, plots and calculations I ask for a donation of $2 or 1.7 per map/plot via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account.
    Every forth map is free. Admix decomposition is $7 or 6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Direct comparison of the main 3 Slavic clades:
    It looks that Y3120 has maximum in the 4th century and M458 and CTS1211 in the 3rd.
    M458 and CTS1211 additionally have secondary maximum in the 6th century:
    (On these charts on the horizontal axis are normal years (not ybp) BCE years have minus sign)

    Should we consider that some of these expanding haplogroups were adjacent to the Pre Slavic core (i.e., the Kyiv Culture or its predecessor - the late Zarubinets Culture) - that is, as part of the Przeworsk Culture (like M-458 and its subclades) or the Cheryakhov Culture (Y3120?) and their expansion was part of a bottle neck(s) opening up, in conjunction with sparsely populated territory, which resulted in exponential growth?

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    Found this cool visualization of the L1029 FtDNA block tree. Also interesting, R-FGC72548 is FTDNA block tree equivalent of R-Y133361 on yfull. The basal one is a German from Frankfurt, Hesse, and a parallel sample of unknown origin.

    Link takes a while to load up. Best viewed on desktop. Not sure why their tmrcas are so high. They have L1029 as 2500ybp.

    https://mpilar.cz/gg/R-L1029/
    Last edited by Uka; 07-31-2021 at 06:50 PM.

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  9. #2865
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    Found this cool visualization of the L1029 FtDNA block tree. Also interesting, R-FGC72548 is FTDNA block tree equivalent of R-Y133361 on yfull. The basal one is a German from Frankfurt, Hesse, and a parallel sample of unknown origin.

    Link takes a while to load up. Best viewed on desktop. Not sure why their tmrcas are so high. They have L1029 as 2500ybp.

    https://mpilar.cz/gg/R-L1029/
    A lot of Russians around many basal clades.
    Some even Fenno-Russians. Given Venaja = Russia. Some basal (pre 500 AD) Pre Slavic expansion into Russia might be possible. Or not, maybe some other explanation? Or just Russians would not invest in deeper trees?

  10. #2866
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    A lot of Russians around many basal clades.
    Some even Fenno-Russians. Given Venaja = Russia. Some basal (pre 500 AD) Pre Slavic expansion into Russia might be possible. Or not, maybe some other explanation? Or just Russians would not invest in deeper trees?
    I think all these block tree samples are bigy. Some basal sure. Mostly evident on YP417 and some other branches split between them and Finns.

    If there's any truth to a late Sarmatians connection, it could explain its presence in South Russian, East Ukraine and Northern Kavkaz. That could also be from proto Slavic drift. But nothing can be ruled out, depending on the timeline/tmrca of the branch.

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  12. #2867
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  14. #2868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    What's that supposed to mean?

  15. #2869
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    Leonardo, and the area somewhere between the Germanic and Sarmatian worlds is the Vistula river basin:

    http://blog.polskaiswiat.com/wp-cont...opy-i-Azji.jpg

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  17. #2870
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    And seriously speaking, the Celtic and Latin language relationships with Proto-Slavic cannot be explained through Germanic mediation, because, for example, Germanic languages are not familiar with words such as kobyła/caballo or gołąb/columba.

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