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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1881
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Lusatian culture for example seems to have been on top of things for quite some time, but then began a phase of stagnation, followed by a near collapse after a long time of them falling back behind others (Germanics and Celts in particular) and with Germanics and Slavs rolling over them, one tribe after the other, especially in the open lands not much persisted I guess. So chances for an early offshot, which itself colonised the North East, when they were still the more advanced group in the region and fairly dominant, would have had better chances of survival and expansion than the original core group. I can't prove it was like that, its just one of many possible scenarios, I guess. Even after a possible colonisation of the North East, there could have been a prolonged period of hard competition between basically closely related groups ("para-Baltoslavic") up to the point of one group (Proto-Baltoslavs) winning the race. Such a scenario of a colonisation first and a prolonged period of competition in the new homeland, with many lineages dying on the way, could easily explain the observable pattern I'd say.
    I found this article. It seemed to relate to your post.
    http://rcin.org.pl/Content/63485/WA3...e-connec_I.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Fin, but in the paternal line he is a Balto-Slavic ancestor - Z280.
    Please explain how he's ancestral to Z280 when he belongs to this subclade? That's him on the Yfulll tree, ancestor to two guys by the looks of it...
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Polish
    Halberstadt_LBA:I0099 44.6%
    Latvian 33.6%
    Hungary_BA:I1504 21.8%
    Distance 0.1451%


    Czech
    Halberstadt_LBA:I0099 69.8
    Hungary_BA:I1504 30.2
    distance % = 0.1343
    Indeed seen the distances there is a missing population indeed:

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    Altvred, there is one per mille of Slavs in the YFull base. Even if he were the ancestor of two modern Slavs, he is still the ancestor of the Slavs.

    Instead, tell us what is the current ratio of the Balto Slavic Z280 to the non-Balto Slavic Z280.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Altvred, there is one per mille of Slavs in the YFull base. Even if he were the ancestor of two modern Slavs, he is still the ancestor of the Slavs.

    Instead, tell us what is the current ratio of the Balto Slavic Z280 to the non-Balto Slavic Z280.
    I'm sorry, but this seems to be a language barrier issue. I will try and do it in as plain English as possible. Please clarify this:

    You do know how subclades, SNPs, and Y-DNA in general work, right? How can somebody who lived 3000 years ago be the ancestor of a subclade formed 5000 years ago? If somebody lived 2000 years after the parent subclade split and belonged to a parallel branch, he can't be the ancestor of anyone but the people downstream of his branch.

     



     



    Also, what happened to the Carpathians? Are we back to Germany for the Slavic homeland again? Maybe suggest Atlantis next time to liven things up.
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
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    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Indeed seen the distances there is a missing population indeed:
    That's a good catch. Obviously, he would be to the West of the Lusatian core region, so that he was mixed and autosomally different is no surprise. But honestly I didn't know he was R-Z280. I solely based my theory on the logic of people spreading with innovations and cultural shifts, which should be noticable. And for the North East, the rite of cremation and the spread of advanced Bronze and beginning Iron technology was probably THE most important shift since the spread of farming and Corded Ware. That he indeed ACTUALLY IS R-Z280 is like bullseye:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT6375/

    He is not ancestral to Slavs in general, but his paternal line comes from the people which formed Baltoslavs and still survives in Slavic speaking people to this day.

    I really didn't know and missed the importance of that. Well, combining that with what David wrote, and I know he is quite focused on R1a, we have to expect those playing their part. And the Urnfield sphere is the local source region. I also think that the Urnfield and LBA-EIA influence being severely underestimated still, mainly because it didn't cause a fundamental shift in ancestral proportions. But it did influence all major IE groupings of Antiquity to this day. There is practically no major IE group, which wasn't significantly affected. But it started from distinct provinces which, by itself, were distinguished. So the Western Celtic, the Southern Daco-Thracians, were different already, before starting to move out. To assume a relation of the core region of the Lusatians with Baltoslavs is imho quite tempting. The Urnfield sphere was the most important LBA formation for IE in Europe. And, probably, it will come out they formed Baltoslavs too, not just influencing them a bit.

    I still can't believe I missed this...

    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Also, what happened to the Carpathians? Are we back to Germany for the Slavic homeland again? Maybe suggest Atlantis next time to liven things up.
    The Lusatian core expanded from what is now Poland and the Carpathian region to the West, and South, causing other, more losely related people of a similar rite and religion, like Gáva-Holigrady, to expand Southward. Which caused, in my opinion, Belegiš II – Gava and the formation of Daco-Thracians to the South East, of Proto-Celts to the West, of Italics in the South. They pushed the others both with ideas, new technology and an own impetus for conquest and colonisation. The Lusatians formed new provinces. Obviously this guy was to the West, so he is expected to have mixed with Western people, but his paternal lineage is coming from the centre of Lusatians most likely.
    Just like the expansions we know of, the rite of cremation and advanced metallurgy might have just spread, directly from the core region, to the North East as well and even causing a part-replacement.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-23-2021 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's a good catch. Obviously, he would be to the West of the Lusatian core region, so that he was mixed and autosomally different is no surprise. But honestly I didn't know he was R-Z280. I solely based my theory on the logic of people spreading with innovations and cultural shifts, which should be noticable. And for the North East, the rite of cremation and the spread of advanced Bronze and beginning Iron technology was probably THE most important shift since the spread of farming and Corded Ware. That he indeed ACTUALLY IS R-Z280 is like bullseye:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT6375/


    He is not ancestral to Slavs in general, but his paternal line comes from the people which formed Baltoslavs and still survives in Slavic speaking people to this day.

    I really didn't know and missed the importance of that. Well, combining that with what David wrote, and I know he is quite focused on R1a, we have to expect those playing their part. And the Urnfield sphere is the local source region. I also think that the Urnfield and LBA-EIA influence being severely underestimated still, mainly because it didn't cause a fundamental shift in ancestral proportions. But it did influence all major IE groupings of Antiquity to this day. There is practically no major IE group, which wasn't significantly affected. But it started from distinct provinces which, by itself, were distinguished. So the Western Celtic, the Southern Daco-Thracians, were different already, before starting to move out. To assume a relation of the core region of the Lusatians with Baltoslavs is imho quite tempting. The Urnfield sphere was the most important LBA formation for IE in Europe. And, probably, it will come out they formed Baltoslavs too, not just influencing them a bit.

    I still can't believe I missed this...
    Ok for what it's worth but in our case only England MBA (no Dutch BA for example!) seems to be a game changer.....(distance below 0.20).
    As a consequence of that Halberstadt disappears.....

    Last edited by Finn; 06-23-2021 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's a good catch. Obviously, he would be to the West of the Lusatian core region, so that he was mixed and autosomally different is no surprise. But honestly I didn't know he was R-Z280. I solely based my theory on the logic of people spreading with innovations and cultural shifts, which should be noticable. And for the North East, the rite of cremation and the spread of advanced Bronze and beginning Iron technology was probably THE most important shift since the spread of farming and Corded Ware. That he indeed ACTUALLY IS R-Z280 is like bullseye:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT6375/

    He is not ancestral to Slavs in general, but his paternal line comes from the people which formed Baltoslavs and still survives in Slavic speaking people to this day.

    I really didn't know and missed the importance of that. Well, combining that with what David wrote, and I know he is quite focused on R1a, we have to expect those playing their part. And the Urnfield sphere is the local source region. I also think that the Urnfield and LBA-EIA influence being severely underestimated still, mainly because it didn't cause a fundamental shift in ancestral proportions. But it did influence all major IE groupings of Antiquity to this day. There is practically no major IE group, which wasn't significantly affected. But it started from distinct provinces which, by itself, were distinguished. So the Western Celtic, the Southern Daco-Thracians, were different already, before starting to move out. To assume a relation of the core region of the Lusatians with Baltoslavs is imho quite tempting. The Urnfield sphere was the most important LBA formation for IE in Europe. And, probably, it will come out they formed Baltoslavs too, not just influencing them a bit.

    I still can't believe I missed this...



    The Lusatian core expanded from what is now Poland and the Carpathian region to the West, and South, causing other, more losely related people of a similar rite and religion, like Gáva-Holigrady, to expand Southward. Which caused, in my opinion, Belegiš II – Gava and the formation of Daco-Thracians to the South East, of Proto-Celts to the West, of Italics in the South. They pushed the others both with ideas, new technology and an own impetus for conquest and colonisation. The Lusatians formed new provinces. Obviously this guy was to the West, so he is expected to have mixed with Western people, but his paternal lineage is coming from the centre of Lusatians most likely.
    Just like the expansions we know of, the rite of cremation and advanced metallurgy might have just spread, directly from the core region, to the North East as well and even causing a part-replacement.
    With Z280 branches that are parallel to the ones ancestral to Balto-Slavic, you also have Poland_EBA/N17 who belonged to R-S24902 and was 800 years older than I0099.

    But again, I wouldn't read too much into how relevant they were to the formation of Balto-Slavs - considering the fact that way to the east we have Spiginas2, who's older than both N17 and I0099, downstream of CTS1211 and almost definitely wasn't ancestral but represented a parallel but related branch to Balto-Slavs.

    Plus, technically in terms of Z280 phylogeny, these Z280 subclades are just as related to Balto-Slavs as the Srubnaya Z280.
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    I found this article. It seemed to relate to your post.
    http://rcin.org.pl/Content/63485/WA3...e-connec_I.pdf
    That's also an important piece, thank you for that. It stresses how close the relationship of Lusatian and Gava-Holigrady was, between the Polish lands and the Carpathians. I was also impressed by the description of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and it points to the fact that a major reason for the downfall of the Lusatians were the incursions by the Thraco-Cimmerian, later the developed Scythian horsemen.

    Given the location of these fi nds mentioned here one might assume that the territo-ries of the Subcarpathia and Western Volhynian Upland, and especially those localities that were subject to a particularly intensive settlement of the population of the Lusatian culture, were within the range of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. The cheek-piece of the Dunakömlöd-Fügöd type could have been lost while forcing the way through extremely vast wet meadows in the vicinity of Komarów-Osada, probably at the time when the nearby cemetery of the population of the Lusatian culture was used, i.e. during the Late Bronze Age
    This could also explain why there was an actual need to move to, otherwise less favourable, territories. Because they were probably.

    The article has many gems, like this one, I didn't know about:
    In the context of the northern fi nds there emerges yet another puzzling issue of the Lusatian culture as-sociations with the zone of central Sweden (areas of Stockholm and Lake Mälar). It is sup-posed that in the younger periods of the Bronze Age small groups of the Lusatian culture population reached these areas, among them also women involved in pottery production (Bukowski 1998, 349-353; further literature there). The presence of characteristic pottery was recorded at the Hĺllunda estate (today a borough of Stockholm) and the cultural cha-racteristics of almost the entire assemblage are consistent with the models developed in the Polish lands in the Lusatian culture milieu, not only when it comes to the morphology, but also from technological point of view (Dąbrowski 1984). In the Late Bronze Age the northern direction of long-distance connections had to be strong and, therefore, it cannot be ruled out that at that particular time the set of bronze items discussed here with the distinctive bracelet and the mould for the production of axes of the Mälar type reached the Sieniocha river area from the north. This phenomenon seems to confi rm the tendency already observed by researchers of movement over long distances of products and manu-facturers thereof; this intensifi ed especially during the younger periods of the Bronze Age and in the Early Iron Age
    New finds pointing once more to Thracian and Scythian incursions:
    n 2015 further seven arrowheads, two nail-shaped earrings, and other interesting bronze artefacts were obtained from the analysed area. In the near future these fi nds will be sub-ject to a thorough analysis but at this stage of the assessment it can be said that within this latest collection there are products of Thraco-Scythian provenance (Vekerzug culture) and also ones imported from the zone of the Hallstatt culture.
    http://rcin.org.pl/Content/63485/WA3...e-connec_I.pdf

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