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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #471
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    None of the Kowalewko_Local_Female samples is remotely close to early non-local mixed Slavs and i don't see how earliest Slavs had much of autosomal admix from both the male or male Kowalewko clusters. This is only possible in a scenario where earliest Slavs were even much more northeastern/Baltic_IA-like than Lithuanians/Belarusians/Avar_Szolad_2, what would be somehow strange for the most likely Proto-Slavic homeland (Belarus/North Ukraine). Stll this does not say anything about cultural or even uniparental impact so Goths seemingly had a significant cultural/linguistic impact on Slavs but in my opinion not really a significant on autosomal dna. Just like Steppe Iranics of Ukraine influenced Proto-Slavs but hardly contributed to earliest Slavic dna.

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  3. #472
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    I have barely read this thread so I might be missing something, but I noticed this Kowalewko_Local_Female:10 is quite close to some Finns, although still very Germanic.

    Target: Kowalewko_Local_Female:10
    Distance: 3.9437% / 0.03943683 | R5P
    62.6 Swedish
    17.0 Finnish_East
    16.8 Icelandic
    2.8 Miao
    0.8 Naxi

    Target: Kowalewko_Local_Female:10
    Distance: 3.0116% / 0.03011557 | R5P
    38.4 Irish_Irish15
    30.0 Karelian_KAR-111
    16.8 Swedish_Sweden8
    12.2 Dutch_Netherlands17
    2.6 Tibetan_Yajiang_YJ104

    If the additional East Asian is noise this individual could even be half Finnish. In terms of distances this individual is closest to SW Finns but also a Germanic-shifted individual from the Gulf of Finland islands.

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  5. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    None of the Kowalewko_Local_Female samples is remotely close to early non-local mixed Slavs and i don't see how earliest Slavs had much of autosomal admix from both the male or male Kowalewko clusters. This is only possible in a scenario where earliest Slavs were even much more northeastern/Baltic_IA-like than Lithuanians/Belarusians/Avar_Szolad_2, what would be somehow strange for the most likely Proto-Slavic homeland (Belarus/North Ukraine). Stll this does not say anything about cultural or even uniparental impact so Goths seemingly had a significant cultural/linguistic impact on Slavs but in my opinion not really a significant on autosomal dna. Just like Steppe Iranics of Ukraine influenced Proto-Slavs but hardly contributed to earliest Slavic dna.
    I'm not on top of the discourse, but when reading your comment, my first thought was: How many ancient Baltic, safe samples from Baltic speakers, from the Iron Age, do we have and where are the plotting?

  6. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm not on top of the discourse, but when reading your comment, my first thought was: How many ancient Baltic, safe samples from Baltic speakers, from the Iron Age, do we have and where are the plotting?
    None if that question was not rhetorical.

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  8. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    None if that question was not rhetorical.
    So so, because I really wasn't sure. Its hard to stay on top of new samples these days.

  9. #476
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    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    None of the Kowalewko_Local_Female samples is remotely close to early non-local mixed Slavs and i don't see how earliest Slavs had much of autosomal admix from both the male or female Kowalewko clusters.
    Me neither, but let's wait for more samples. Perhaps local women who lived east of (or close to) Vistula river were different autosomally?

    These Wielbark culture and Maslomecz group sites were analysed by Janusz Piontek.

    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-07-2021 at 02:10 PM.

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  11. #477
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    Baltic BA

    Kow54 - 26.8%
    Kow29 - 24.4%
    Kow26 - 19.6%
    Kow22 - 16.8%
    Kow25 - 16.6%

    SWE Oland IA VK579 - 18.4%

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  13. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm not on top of the discourse, but when reading your comment, my first thought was: How many ancient Baltic, safe samples from Baltic speakers, from the Iron Age, do we have and where are the plotting?
    The closest in terms of geography, timeframe, and ancestry are the Balt_LTU_BA samples and some of the Ukrainian Scythians ("Scythian Farmers) like MJ14. But Balt_LTU_BA is too old to and too northeastern so not a perfect proxy for the earliest Proto-Slavic IA ancestry. The Scythian Farmers (likely Balto-Slavic but not Proto-Slavic) on the other side too southeastern and seem to have some Sarmatian/Balkan/Central Euro ancestry (i think these Scythian Farmers are a possible substrate for Ukrainians/Russians). So we can not get good fits on Global25 for ancient and modern Slavs by using only IA and BA references. But based on geography, so far published early Slavic genomes and common sense Proto-Slavs should cluster southwest of Balt_LTU_BA and northeast of Scythian Farmers, where today Lithuanians, Belarusians and North Ukrainians are genetically located.

    If this is true there is not much room for Central European/Germanic admix among earliest Proto-Slavs or my theory is somehow wrong and North Ukraine/Belarus had around 0-500 A.D populations, which were carbon copies of Balt_BA but then we should get better fits with currently published BA/IA genomes. Also, we see among Balt_BA genomes a clear genetic cline with samples from Lithuanian being much more southwestern shifted than samples from Estonia or even Latvia. On top, there is a shift in Balt_IA towards something Hun_Avar_Szolad_2/Pseuo-Slavic-like so populations in Lithuania_IA and Belarus_IA should have Hun_Avar_Szolad_2-like or at least shifted populations.

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  15. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    The closest in terms of geography, timeframe, and ancestry are the Balt_LTU_BA samples and some of the Ukrainian Scythians ("Scythian Farmers) like MJ14. But Balt_LTU_BA is too old to and too northeastern so not a perfect proxy for the earliest Proto-Slavic IA ancestry. The Scythian Farmers (likely Balto-Slavic but not Proto-Slavic) on the other side too southeastern and seem to have some Sarmatian/Balkan/Central Euro ancestry (i think these Scythian Farmers are a possible substrate for Ukrainians/Russians). So we can not get good fits on Global25 for ancient and modern Slavs by using only IA and BA references. But based on geography, so far published early Slavic genomes and common sense Proto-Slavs should cluster southwest of Balt_LTU_BA and northeast of Scythian Farmers, where today Lithuanians, Belarusians and North Ukrainians are genetically located.

    If this is true there is not much room for Central European/Germanic admix among earliest Proto-Slavs or my theory is somehow wrong and North Ukraine/Belarus had around 0-500 A.D populations, which were carbon copies of Balt_BA but then we should get better fits with currently published BA/IA genomes. Also, we see among Balt_BA genomes a clear genetic cline with samples from Lithuanian being much more southwestern shifted than samples from Estonia or even Latvia. On top, there is a shift in Balt_IA towards something Hun_Avar_Szolad_2/Pseuo-Slavic-like so populations in Lithuania_IA and Belarus_IA should have Hun_Avar_Szolad_2-like or at least shifted populations.
    The funny thing about the Proto-Slavic homeland theories is that they moved more to the North East with every find. Let's see where they end up in the end. I also think its possible that the Proto-Slavic population might have been structured itself, so with some groups being possibly more, others less NE shifted. But we'll only know for sure when we can connect all the dots, so far there are too few available I'd say.

  16. #480
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    J1c2b

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    Y-chromosome markers testify against a more northeasterly homeland, if we are to characterize certain haplogroups as 'core Slavic'. Basal I2a-Slavic is most rich around the Ukrainian Carpathians and neighboring provinces to the north and east. Basal M458 is found mostly in Poland and in areas with Gothic admixture; they would have picked this up in, of course, Poland. If the northeastern homeland is correct, this means that core Slavs were mainly M558 and Z92, with Slavic I2a and M458 proliferating due to elite chieftain effects la M222 in Ireland, with those lines joining the early proto-Slavic groups as they first expanded to the southwest into Volhynia and Podolia.

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