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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2841
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Impossible that Dalmatians are Slavs if the Slavs only arrived in 639AD .............who where they before ..................Do you think the lands where empty of people?...........It is interesting , that some think Europe was like North America and people moved and left the area vacant of everybody....something like the red indians, pack up the tepee we are moving

    ....
    Vettor,
    don't you understand that pre-Slavic Dalmatians were incorporated into Croatian nation long before. We are not 100% from Slavs who came in the 7th century. In the last 1300 years natives melted with the Slavs. We are almost 40% to 50% native.
    Their heritage is also our heritage despite we don't speak the old Dalmatian language.
     
    Some simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps, plots and calculations I ask for a donation of $2 or €1.7 per map/plot via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account.
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  3. #2842
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    The extensive toponomastic studies, and their critical review by Henryk Łowmiański, show existence of at least several toponyms of settlements in Poland and Czech Republic whose origin is related to Croatian tribal organization and not late medieval migrations. These are in Poland: Klwaty (Krwathi, Chrwathi Phirleonis), Klwatka Szlachecka (Krhwathi Powałya, Chrwathi), Klwatka Królewska (Krwathka, Chrwatka) around the city of Radom, Chirwatowa Wola near Wisłoka river and Horwaty near San river. In Czech Republic: two Charvátce near Ohře river, Charvátec near city of Dobrovice on river Elbe, Charvâty and Charváty near Morava river. In Czech Republic only the toponyms in Moravia have the archaic tribal names, while in Bohemia are derivations, implying were formed on the periphery or outside of the Croatian territory. Seemingly the territory of Croatia corresponded to the territory of Lesser Poland.[59] Interestingly, surnames derived from Croatian ethnonym in Poland are recorded since the 14th century in Kraków, Przemyśl and else, and generally among Polish native nobility, peasants, and local residents, but not among the foreigners. They used it as a nickname, but probably due to the influence of immigration from the Kingdom of Hungary.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia

    It would be helpfull to have some genetic information from these areas.

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  5. #2843
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    Of all Slavic ethnonyms, Croatian is the most annoying. It appears litererally everywhere where Slavs migrated.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 07-29-2021 at 12:56 PM.

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  7. #2844
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Vettor,
    don't you understand that pre-Slavic Dalmatians were incorporated into Croatian nation long before. We are not 100% from Slavs who came in the 7th century. In the last 1300 years natives melted with the Slavs. We are almost 40% to 50% native.
    Their heritage is also our heritage despite we don't speak the old Dalmatian language.
    Funny how I never get any notice you sent me as a message/quote , while I do get it from others .................so sorry for the delay or no response in the past.

    It all depends on when you want history to start...........yes Dalmatians have a higher % of modern croats ....but percentages change the further back one goes............for Dalmatians, they could not have been croats before 925AD, so who where they .............Roman historians say they came from the illyrian tribe Delmatae .............older historians say they originate from Liburnians who where around in the area in the Late bronze-age to the Roman period of early AD

    Of course your heritage should have some Liburnian, Dalmatian, Venetian, Austrian and croat any any other i missed out on.............even Roman as some Roman emperors where Dalmatian born.

    I do not know why some people do not want to here the history of a people they absorbed into their society......it is the same argument I have with my croatian friends ( known for over 10 years ) who do not want to chat about the area of croatia prior to early medieval period

    In regards to incorporation ...........The dalmatian period under Venice circa 1000 to 1797 , does this mean they are Venetians ......800 years of marriages and mixing ............is the Austrian period relevant from 1797 to after WW1 relevant ..........I cannot see why some exclude these period or even the Roman period from 150BC to the end of the western Roman empire

    so, if you want to speak only on modern times, you get one history, if you want to go back 2000 years you get another history

    Language is not ethnicity ..............we all speak English here , yet we are not all from England


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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  9. #2845
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    The earlier Slavic name of Berlin was reportedly Bralin.
    The name Berlin is originally Slavic. It goes back to the old Polabian Birlin, Berlin and means 'place in a swampy area'. It is based on Old Polabian birl-, berl- ‚swamp, morass',
    Last edited by Alain; 07-30-2021 at 06:29 AM.
    Alain Dad
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  11. #2846
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    It all depends on when you want history to start...........yes Dalmatians have a higher % of modern croats ....but percentages change the further back one goes............for Dalmatians, they could not have been croats before 925AD, so who where they .............Roman historians say they came from the illyrian tribe Delmatae .............older historians say they originate from Liburnians who where around in the area in the Late bronze-age to the Roman period of early AD
    If you are looking for people that might have Liburnian ancestry, the best you can do is to check the Y-DNA haplogroups of the populations of northern Adriatic islands.

    You can find some percentages here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Croats

    However, mind that these populations are small and the current percentages might be a result of the genetic drift. I selected some pecentages of the populations of the biggest two islands for you:

    Krk
    ===
    R1a-M17 ... 37%
    I2a-Y3120 ... 27%
    R1b ... 16.2%
    J2 ... 10.8%
    E1b-V13 ... 6.8%

    Cres
    ====
    R1a-M17 ... 56.5%
    I2a-Y3120 ... 3%
    J2 ... 14.1%
    G2a-P15 ... 7%
    E1b-V13 ... 3%

    As you can see, the Slavic haplogroups are dominant there as much as they are in the rest of Croatia.

    I believe that we should look for "Liburnians" under R1b. I hope that you understand that looking for real Liburnians in such a small and isolated community as north Adriatic island, after ~2000 years of history, would be as much ridiculous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridiculous) as looking for Etruscians in today Toscana.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 07-29-2021 at 09:22 PM.

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  13. #2847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    If you are looking for people that might have Liburnian ancestry, the best you can do is to check the Y-DNA haplogroups of the populations of northern Adriatic islands.

    You can find some percentages here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Croats

    However, mind that these populations are small and the current percentages might be a result of the genetic drift. I selected some pecentages of the populations of the biggest two islands for you:

    Krk
    ===
    R1a-M17 ... 37%
    I2a-Y3120 ... 27%
    R1b ... 16.2%
    J2 ... 10.8%
    E1b-V13 ... 6.8%

    Cres
    ====
    R1a-M17 ... 56.5%
    I2a-Y3120 ... 3%
    J2 ... 14.1%
    G2a-P15 ... 7%
    E1b-V13 ... 3%

    As you can see, the Slavic haplogroups are dominant there as they are in the rest of Croatia.

    I believe that we should look for "Liburnians" under R1b. I hope that you understand that looking for real Liburnians in such a small and isolated community as north Adriatic island, after ~2000 years of history, would be as much ridiculous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridiculous) as looking for Etruscians in today Toscana.
    The only Liburnian samples I know is sample R1 and SZ1

    Italian history/historians state that their was a Liburnian colony of Picene/Marche Italy circa 1000 BC , but by 400BC it became umbrian and also the liburnians have a link with Foggia Italy which eventually became the messapic linguistic group with the ancient tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians , being the biggest and oldest group of the 3 Messapic tribes

    apart from E-V13 ...all other ydna you mentioned are in Adriatic Italy ............they have also E-M35 ...not sure what that means for E-V13 as it does not interest me/never checked on it

    I just followed this
    https://www.nature.com/articles/5200992.pdf?origin=ppub

    many papers state


    Dalmatians/Liburians spoke a Romance language


    samples found in Liburnian lands

    Last edited by vettor; 07-29-2021 at 10:00 PM.


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    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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  15. #2848
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    https://www.archaeological.org/field...oject-croatia/

    Nadin-Gradina Archaeological Project (Croatia)

    http://www.nadin-gradina.com/



    I will wait for the 36 ancient samples to be evaluated ...........in the mean time

    https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstre...pdf?sequence=1

    A PRELIMINARY GEOCHEMICAL CHARACTERIZATION OF RELIEF CERAMICS
    FROM THE NADIN NECROPOLIS

    https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/v...ontext=gc_etds
    Last edited by vettor; 07-29-2021 at 10:59 PM.


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    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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  17. #2849
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Dalmatians/Liburians spoke a Romance language
    The Liburnians and Delmatae or Illyrian tribes of the Dalmatian coastline certainly did not speak Romance languages (i.e. languages evolving from Vulgar Latin). The consensus is that the Liburnian onomastic area and language was closest to the Venetic language which was spoken in north-east Italy and portions of modern Slovenia, this group is usually classified as belonging to the Italic branch of Indo-European.

    The Delmatae and neighbouring tribes on the other hand belonged to a separate onomastic area that is usually grouped together with that of the Pannonian tribes and is unrelated to the Liburnian-speaking area, if anything it is closest to the core or southern Illyrian onomastic area. Likewise, Messapian also appears to be unrelated to Liburnian and closer to the core Illyrian linguistic territories.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  19. #2850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The Liburnians and Delmatae or Illyrian tribes of the Dalmatian coastline certainly did not speak Romance languages (i.e. languages evolving from Vulgar Latin). The consensus is that the Liburnian onomastic area and language was closest to the Venetic language which was spoken in north-east Italy and portions of modern Slovenia, this group is usually classified as belonging to the Italic branch of Indo-European.

    The Delmatae and neighbouring tribes on the other hand belonged to a separate onomastic area that is usually grouped together with that of the Pannonian tribes and is unrelated to the Liburnian-speaking area, if anything it is closest to the core or southern Illyrian onomastic area. Likewise, Messapian also appears to be unrelated to Liburnian and closer to the core Illyrian linguistic territories.
    on your first paragraph ...........I can agree , but this is an old analysis , which was refuted by many linguists ..........The Romans only placed the Venetics and the Istrians as one group under region number 10 as they where similar ......The liburnians they placed on their own

    I presume you looked at this map to say Liburnians and Venetics are the same ...............see map, so are the Catari
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._(English).svg

    The dalmatians and the pannonians seem to be only together from circa 500BC until the illyrian revolt against the Romans in 15BC

    There is no Dalmatians named before this period of 500BC, Historians claim that the Dalmatians are a southern branch of the Liburnians , who came from and are linked to the Catari tribe of modern Slovenia


    Maybe the Liburnian as stated below relied on more land based food , then the sea due to the large land area they owned


    Catari
    Catari was the name of a tribe belonging to the Venetic peoples that are sometimes confused [Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0631198075,page 81,"... " In Roman Pannonia the Latobici and Varciani who dwelt east of the Venetic Catari in the upper Sava valley were Celtic but the Colapiani of the Colapis (Kulpa) valley were Illyrians ( ..."] with Illyrians.
    Last edited by vettor; 07-30-2021 at 02:31 AM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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