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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #3471
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    What happened in the hole between 1400bc-Western Hallstatt and 200bc-Przeworsk/Zarubintsy i simply dont know. Przeworsk is supposed to initially be a La Tene expansion so maybe thats when pre-S20602 expanded east of Bohemia or it could be an earlier expansion from Eastern Hallstatt but without ancient samples the only thing i can do is speculate and anyone's guess is as good as mine.
    I think the key might be the I-Y44940 subclade:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y44940/

    the German and the Southeast Pole split around 2200 years ago, or later.

    if I-Y44940 and I-Y3120 came to Eastern Europe with the same migration, than it must've happened around 200bc or later.

    Przeworsk and Zarubintsy both started in the 3rd century BC, and both are La Tene influenced.

    Could the "I2a people" be a group of La Tene men which settled in eastern Przeworsk or Zarubintsy as these culutres were forming?

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  3. #3472
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Tatut, the same can be said for most of the ancient place names.

    Nevertheless, the most common accepted etymologies are those that give the name of Warsaw as a tenant name from the diminutive name Warcisław - Warsz, and the name of Kraków derives from the pra-Slavic word for a river branch - kraka. In Central Europe, there are a large number of local names derived from this core in the areas inhabited (formerly or today) by the Slavs.
    Don't generalize like that, because things are very different, especially when we have references. For example, all known names for the Danube so far (where the Slavs were first geographically located), even the oldest name Mataos are easily explained in Slavic. The situation with the Black Sea and its old name Pontos is similar. There is no doubt that the inhabitants of the area were Slavic-speaking even before the time of Christ.
    “Warcislaw from Warsz” gives nothing like information.what’s the meaning here and where is the Slavic dictionary to prove it? pra- Slavic dictionary? Krak is river branch in what language? Reference?
    the names in question, Warsaw and Krakow, for both, no scientist has so far given a specific connection with either Slavic or IE.
    How "old" are these names and what are the older names?

  4. #3473
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    I think the key might be the I-Y44940 subclade:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y44940/

    the German and the Southeast Pole split around 2200 years ago, or later.

    if I-Y44940 and I-Y3120 came to Eastern Europe with the same migration, than it must've happened around 200bc or later.

    Przeworsk and Zarubintsy both started in the 3rd century BC, and both are La Tene influenced.

    Could the "I2a people" be a group of La Tene men which settled in eastern Przeworsk or Zarubintsy as these culutres were forming?
    Its certainly possible, though unusual, because the more Western Celtic impact was rather low in most regions. But its, after all, just about one lineage - one important clan or even just individual which might have had a more influential position and being a more successful reproducer, who knows.

    They were there, in any case. These are archaeologically confirmed settlement areas in Poland - and there is definitely more:



    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/ta...lement-poland/

    Another view, their influences were present up to the Ukraine:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_340179168

    Like in the Balkans, the Celts might have assimilated a lot of the locals or just influenced them, so it could have been a local e.g. Lusatian lineage as well, even if spreading through a Celtic cultural context.

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  6. #3474
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    Tatut, I don't know where you get your information from. Warsaw and Krakow have a clear Slavic etymology. As I said, the name of Warsaw comes from the diminutive name Warsz, and Krakow comes from the general Slavic word kraka - a branch of the river. Places named from this core are currently found in Germany, Austria, Czech, Ukraine and Slovenia.

    Sources:

    Kwiryna Handke: Dzieje Warszawy nazwami pisane. Warszawa: Muzeum Historyczne m.st. Warszawy, 2011, s. 71.
    Kazimierz Rymut: Nazwy Miast Polski. Wrocław: Zakład Narodowy im. Ossolińskich, 1987, s. 118, 119
    Last edited by ambron; 10-22-2021 at 02:46 PM.

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  8. #3475
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Tatut, I don't know where you get your information from. Warsaw and Krakow have a clear Slavic etymology. As I said, the name of Warsaw comes from the diminutive name Warsz, and Krakow comes from the general Slavic word kraka - a branch of the river. Places named from this core are currently found in Germany, Austria, Czech, Ukraine and Slovenia.

    Sources:

    Kwiryna Handke: Dzieje Warszawy nazwami pisane. Warszawa: Muzeum Historyczne m.st. Warszawy, 2011, s. 71.
    Kazimierz Rymut: Nazwy Miast Polski. Wrocław: Zakład Narodowy im. Ossolińskich, 1987, s. 118, 119
    At the same time your comment casts doubt about how useful it is. Because like I said before, the very early Slavs adopted little from the preceding populations in many areas. There are clear Slavic hotspots in Austria for Slavic toponyms, which were once settled by a whole range of different people which left little to nothing behind.
    That's why especially for Slavs only the oldest dated toponyms matter, if at all.
    What about Celtic toponyms in Poland? Any maps, or is it not enough?

  9. #3476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Its certainly possible, though unusual, because the more Western Celtic impact was rather low in most regions. But its, after all, just about one lineage - one important clan or even just individual which might have had a more influential position and being a more successful reproducer, who knows.

    They were there, in any case. These are archaeologically confirmed settlement areas in Poland - and there is definitely more:



    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/ta...lement-poland/

    Another view, their influences were present up to the Ukraine:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_340179168

    Like in the Balkans, the Celts might have assimilated a lot of the locals or just influenced them, so it could have been a local e.g. Lusatian lineage as well, even if spreading through a Celtic cultural context.
    The Grandfather of the Polish sample was born in Silesia and was an illegitimate child of an unknown German taking his mothers surname > Wojtowicz. I-CTS4002 split somewhere in Central Germany arround the time when P312 arived so thats maybe when they became Indo-Europenised then you have I-FGC20479 going to the Isles while I-Y44940 and I-CTS10228 stayed in place. It is possible that the German Silesian was a Germanised Bohemian Celtic line while S20602 moved farther east and became Proto-Slavic in fact Przeworsk is essentially La Tene expanding to the Northeast. The problem is these haplogroup I branches would have been very minor in the ocean of R1b and its going to be very hard to find them when testing ancient dna.

    Edit: While i guess Lusatian is not of the question because it does fit the dating i would think if it was Lusatian that brought Pre-S20602 and not La Tene>Przeworsk that it would be more widespread and not have a 200bc bottleneck.
    Last edited by vasil; 10-22-2021 at 11:22 PM.
    Distance: 6.5138% / 0.06513835
    56.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    13.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    7.6 LUX_Loschbour
    3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 MNG_Late_Med

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  11. #3477
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    Riverman, as I wrote earlier, in the target areas of Slavic migration we find Slavic toponyms, for the simple reason that sometimes Slavs settled in previously unnamed places. That's why such Austrian hotspots are literally hotspots. They cannot in the slightest compete with the compact areas of Slavic hydronymy from the areas of Poland and Western Ukraine, based on old Indo-European hydronyms.

    https://docplayer.pl/docs-images/86/...ages/218-2.jpg

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    "Geographical names are extremely helpful in giving evidence of early settlements and their inhabitants due to their solid anchorage in the landscape, even in the case of population changes. Through the investigation of these place names, information can be gathered not only on the name giver, but also on the settlers who took on the names later on. Therefore, it is considered that any linguistic investigation has to start from the river and place names of a region. The utilization of geographical names yields the following findings: - The centre of Old Slavic names is situated on the northern slope of the Carpathian Mountains, approximately between Bukovina and Krakow; it is based on a substrate of older, Indo-European hydronyms. - The expansion of the East Slavic tribes bypasses the Pripyat Marshes and extends further through Central Russia and especially to the North and the East. - West Slavic settlers reach their new settlement areas through migration from Bohemia and further on to Saxonia and Thuringia, and also through Western Poland to Brandenburg and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. - The migration of the South Slavs takes place in two big, yet separate flows, on the one hand through the Moravian Gate to Slovenia, Hungary and Croatia, and on the other hand on the Eastern edge of the Carpathian Mountains to Serbia and Bulgaria."

    http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/elemen..._ONOMAST_60_15

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  15. #3479
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Riverman, as I wrote earlier, in the target areas of Slavic migration we find Slavic toponyms, for the simple reason that sometimes Slavs settled in previously unnamed places. That's why such Austrian hotspots are literally hotspots. They cannot in the slightest compete with the compact areas of Slavic hydronymy from the areas of Poland and Western Ukraine, based on old Indo-European hydronyms.
    Of course its not the same, but its just not true that all those Slavic hotspots were completely uninhabited. There might have been just few or even no people when the Slavs came in, but some places were even central ones for people before. There must be always an unbroken chain of inhabitation and the newcomers assimilate locals, otherwise the transmission is never guaranteed.

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  17. #3480
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    Of course, the dispersed Slavic toponymy in the areas of migration has a complex origin. These could be places that had no name at that time, or were uninhabited, or changed their name as a result of a change of ownership. The important thing is that they are in a decidedly unfavorable relationship to non-Slavic local names.

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