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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Whats SK on that PCA again?
    Distance to: HUN_MA_Szolad_o1:SZ19
    0.04303311 Italian_Lazio:PG28
    0.04464719 French_Corsica:Corsica29708
    0.04585466 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14

    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-24-2021 at 09:02 PM.

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  3. #2752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Whats SK on that PCA again?
    So we'll have have 5 samples autosomally Italian-like with no Germanic admixture and 9 Germanic ones from Longobard/Germanic archeologically/culturally burial site. There will be many, many, many more cemeteries (culturally homonogenous, but biologically/ethnically diverse) like that, AFAIK
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-25-2021 at 09:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Whats SK on that PCA again? Because it can't be the country code for Slovakia going by the position below Italy.
    Probably a Slovakian of Jewish heritage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    So we'll have have 5 samples autosomally Italian-like with no Germanic admixture and 9 Germanic ones from Longobard archeologically/culturally burials. There will be many, many, many more cemeteries (culturally homonogenous, but biologically/ethnically diverse) like that, AFAIK
    Except they were mostly, not all, but mostly, not buried among the Langobard clan members and with no or different grave goods. At least that's what I saw in Szolad and Collegno. It matters if e.g. a clearly Germanic family being buried close together, all with rich grave goods, and then there were randomly positioned individuals with poor or no burial objects. Even more so, if some of these servants seem to have been left behind in Pannonia and new ones were taken up in Italy.
    There were however mixed individuals and families, even some Germanic individuals which were not part of a family group, like one which had a more Frankish profile.

    The authors which played those differences down to emphasize the "fluent ethnic identities" seem to have overlooked some of these aspects. What matters most is how the dead were grouped. There were also richer Southern European burials, probably these were rather local allies and elites, which adapted, this is observable too, as were mixed families, the later the more.

    The Goths seem to have been, overall, more mixed than the Langobards, which is another thing worth to be mentioned, but we need larger scale samples and comparisons.

    Anyway, I still don't get why the code is SK, because that's usually the country code for Slovakia and that's for sure not the Slovakian position. The other letter combinations all (or almost all) seem to represent modern countries, like Italy and Cyprus.

  7. #2755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Except they were mostly, not all, but mostly, not buried among the Langobard clan members and with no or different grave goods
    This burial (with a fragment of the Gothic bible) will be Italian-like with no Germanic admixture - https://www.academia.edu/30790641/A_...ranean_Context

    You're very biased, but the overall picture will be much more complicated/interesting as leonardo says
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-25-2021 at 09:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    This burial (with a fragment of the Gothic bible) will be Italian-like with no Germanic admixture - https://www.academia.edu/30790641/A_...ranean_Context

    You're very biased, but the overall picture will be much more complicated/interesting as leonardo says
    I'm just following the Szolad and Collegno results, are there new ones? The combination of grave goods and family networks with biological relatives was quite clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm just following the Szolad and Collegno results, are there new ones?
    The new results are coming. As leonardo said: "I see it as alliances and foederati (federations). We see it all the time throughout history. I don't see why every clan would need to inter mix to form a multi-ethnic formation. After all, that's what multi-ethnic means. Just look at some of the recent posts by Waldemar: Byzantines hire the Sclaveni to fight, Avars and Sclaveni form an alliance to fight, Goths fight with the Byzantines, then against them, etc. None of these groups mixed y-dna."

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    As for Germanics and Slavs, this study confirms little mixing " from early medieval Slavic expansion to post-World War II resettlements."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    As for Germanics and Slavs, this study confirms little mixing " from early medieval Slavic expansion to post-World War II resettlements."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/
    Y-DNA frequencies can not be used to calculate the amount of autosomal mixing especially when like in this study only macro haplogroups or clades forming before the Iron Age are only checked. Low germanic admix is surely true for a lot of Poles but very unlikely for Czechs, Sorbs and all Poles. The question is rather if this Central/Germanic substrate is pre-or Post-Slavic. In many regions probably more Post-Slavic than Pre-Slavic at least this is my impression from looking at the early Slavic samples in Central Europe and depopulation of this region prior to Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    The new results are coming. As leonardo said: "I see it as alliances and foederati (federations). We see it all the time throughout history. I don't see why every clan would need to inter mix to form a multi-ethnic formation. After all, that's what multi-ethnic means. Just look at some of the recent posts by Waldemar: Byzantines hire the Sclaveni to fight, Avars and Sclaveni form an alliance to fight, Goths fight with the Byzantines, then against them, etc. None of these groups mixed y-dna."
    I don't doubt that, but the question is whether individuals were lasting parts of a greater ethnic formation, or just allies and servants, oftentimes just for a short period of time. Like Szolad vs. Collegno left, in part, the impression to me that the Langobards did pick up local allies and servants as they could grab them, and when moving on, they took some with them, especially some mixed families were incorporated, but others, probably a large portion, was left behind and new ones taken up in allied and servile status in Italy. That's not what being part of the Langobard tribe and ethnos was about, but more like a moving socio-political organisation.
    The borderline was fluent though, in all directions, as the mixtures and assimilations prove as well.
    Military alliances are a completely different subject though, or can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Y-DNA frequencies can not be used to calculate the amount of autosomal mixing especially when like in this study only macro haplogroups or clades forming before the Iron Age are only checked. Low germanic admix is surely true for a lot of Poles but unlikely for Czechs, Sorbs and all Poles. The question is rather if this Central/Germanic substrate is pre-or Post-Slavic. In many regions probably more Post-Slavic than Pre-Slavic at least this is my impression from looking at the early Slavic samples in Central Europe and depopulation of this region prior to Slavs.
    I largely agree but think this will pan out differently region by region, down to fairly small scale geographical units. Poland, Czechia and Slovakia are kind of too big for being lumped together, even as a country. But especially the Czech Republic will most likely harbour both, pre- and post-Slavic admixture fron non-Slavic populations.
    Last edited by Riverman; 07-25-2021 at 10:30 PM.

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