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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Y-DNA frequencies can not be used to calculate the amount of autosomal mixing especially when like in this study only macro haplogroups or clades forming before the Iron Age are only checked. Low germanic admix is surely true for a lot of Poles but unlikely for Czechs, Sorbs and all Poles. The question is rather if this Central/Germanic substrate is pre-or Post-Slavic. In many regions probably more Post-Slavic than Pre-Slavic at least this is my impression from looking at the early Slavic samples in Central Europe and depopulation of this region prior to Slavs.
    I understand that y-dna is not autosomal dna. The study speaks for itself as it concerns y-dna, as the title clearly states, "Contemporary paternal genetic landscape of Polish and German populations." These Iron Age/early medieval clans were paternalistic so y-dna is a great indicator of tribes and ethnogenesis, in my opinion. The fact is, most of the y-dna clans - Germanic, Slavic, etc. - i.e., men - mixed with similar women. Therefore the only factor that will distinguish these tribes or clans in this time period is y-dna.
    Last edited by leonardo; 07-25-2021 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    I understand that y-dna is not autosomal dna. The study speaks for itself as it concerns y-dna, as the title clearly states, "Contemporary paternal genetic landscape of Polish and German populations." These Iron Age/early medieval clans were paternalistic so y-dna is a great indicator of tribes and ethnogenesis, in my opinion. The fact is, most of the y-dna clans - Germanic, Slavic, etc. - i.e., men - mixed with similar women. Therefore the only factor that will distinguish these tribes or clans in this time period is y-dna.
    The point is that Y-DNA studies alone can not disprove or confirm little mixing here which looking at autosomal DNA is clearly not the case for Czechs, Slovaks, South Poles and Czechs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    The point is that Y-DNA studies alone can not disprove or confirm little mixing here which looking at autosomal DNA is clearly not the case for Czechs, Slovaks, South Poles and Czechs.
    And the article I posted refers to Polish and German populations. I never intended to imply anything about the others you mention. Still, much of the conversation here has revolved around these two ethno groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm just following the Szolad and Collegno results, are there new ones? The combination of grave goods and family networks with biological relatives was quite clear.
    this was indeed the case found in the early necropoli
    before the first paper came out c. giostra (part of the geary team) examined this for collegno

     


    coupled with the DNA it follows the historic narrative
    in paulus diaconus (2.32) His diebus multi nobilium Romanorum ob cupiditatem interfecti sunt. Reliqui vero per hospites divisi, ut tertiam partem suarum frugum Langobardis persolverent, tributarii efficiuntur it is then very likely that the longobards also kept (along with the land) also the coloni of those landonwers that they killed (and after the gothic-war there wasnt much else there) but keep in mind that at collegno there is also a diff. between the two warrior clans CL1 and CL2 and that is part of the juice of whats the migration period
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PEN. 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10C.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Whats SK on that PCA again? Because it can't be the country code for Slovakia going by the position below Italy.
    SZ = Szolad was ancient Pannonia...now it is in hungaria

    SK is slovakia

    history states that the lombards entered modern Austria and Hungaria from slovakia ..............settled there and where eventually kicked out by the Rugii tribe
    Rugi, Germanic tribe that migrated from southwest Norway to Pomerania around ad 100 and from there to the Danube River valley. They were allies of Attila until his death (453) and then settled in what is now Austria.
    some say they united with the ostrogoths to go to Italy....but this contradicts there victories over the Lombards ......so unsure about this part
    others say they arrived in Vienna first and where crushed by the Lombards
    Last edited by vettor; 07-26-2021 at 02:58 AM.


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    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
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    Ryukendo

    "The inferred population size surfaces for the POPRES data show a general increase in sizes through time, with small fluctuations across geography; In our results, the smallest inferred population sizes are in the Balkans and Eastern Europe more generally. This is in agreement with the signal seen previously [...]; however, taken at face value, our results suggest that high PSC sharing in these regions may be due more to consistently low population densities than to historical expansions (such as the Slavic or Hunnic expansions)".

    https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...1007908#sec001

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    "We detected a systematic, large-scale deviation from a simple diffusion model with uniform population density, as there is a clear gradient for higher block sharing in the direction of the Balkan countries".

    I advise reading comprehension. This fragment tells us clearly that traces of migration are visible only in the Balkans, but not in Poland.

  10. #2768
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    The effective Polish population size is greater than that of the Spanish, French and British population:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41614
    Figure 4

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  12. #2769
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    Ryukendo

    If you have a better explanation for this phenomenon than the disproportionate approach of females and males to procreation, then please...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Except they were mostly, not all, but mostly, not buried among the Langobard clan members and with no or different grave goods. At least that's what I saw in Szolad and Collegno. It matters if e.g. a clearly Germanic family being buried close together, all with rich grave goods, and then there were randomly positioned individuals with poor or no burial objects. Even more so, if some of these servants seem to have been left behind in Pannonia and new ones were taken up in Italy.
    In Collegno, the group with the northern ancestry (Germanic Longobards) didn't mix with the locals for about a century, 4 generations. But then they started to mix with the southern European group and they basically disappeared (as their language) in the sea of the locals.

    That's what we'll see in many late Germanic or i.e. late Avar cultures.

    In Poland, the Goths didn't mix with the locals for about 200 years (approximately 8 generations).
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-26-2021 at 05:42 AM.

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