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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1551
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    Atticus, I repeat from time to time that when the Slavs stop burning their dead in the Middle Ages, typical Slavic autosomes and uniparental markers appear in burials.

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  3. #1552
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    bce, I don't understand any of this. At this point, it looks as if the Belarusians do not have Balto-Slavic drift.

  4. #1553
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    I think I found a way to measure Balto-Slavic drift.

    The German Corded Ware outlier occupies the same position as Belarusians on a WHG/EEF/Steppe based PCA:


    So, their general admixture proportions are pretty similar.

    However, he is actually more closely related to other CWC samples from Germany than to Baltic_BA (negative z-score):

    Code:
    > f4(f2_blocks,'Cameroon_SMA_published','Germany_CordedWare_o','Germany_CordedWare','Estonia_BA.SG')
    # A tibble: 1 x 8
      pop1                   pop2                 pop3               pop4               est       se     z        p
      <chr>                  <chr>                <chr>              <chr>            <dbl>    <dbl> <dbl>    <dbl>
    1 Cameroon_SMA_published Germany_CordedWare_o Germany_CordedWare Estonia_BA.SG -0.00377 0.000534 -7.05 1.77e-12
    For Belarusians it's the opposite: (positive z-score)

    Code:
    > f4(f2_blocks,'Cameroon_SMA_published','Belarusian','Germany_CordedWare','Estonia_BA.SG')
    # A tibble: 1 x 8
      pop1                   pop2       pop3               pop4              est       se     z           p
      <chr>                  <chr>      <chr>              <chr>           <dbl>    <dbl> <dbl>       <dbl>
    1 Cameroon_SMA_published Belarusian Germany_CordedWare Estonia_BA.SG 0.00139 0.000282  4.91 0.000000919

    The conclusion is that the German Corded Ware outlier doesn't have any Baltic drift. He is just a member of his population, but with increased WHG admixture.
    BCE, this is absolutely brilliant!!

    If you have the time/can spare the effort, I recommend repeating this process for all WHG-rich populations/individuals and plotting the amount of BS drift (indicated by point color) on the West Eurasian PCA. It would be fascinating to see all these WHG-rich populations/individuals all in the same WHG-shifted part of the PCA, but with different colors ( i.e. have different amts of BS drift).
    Quoted from this Forum:

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    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

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  6. #1554
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    bce, I don't understand any of this. At this point, it looks as if the Belarusians do not have Balto-Slavic drift.
    That Belarusians and Germany CW outlier share different amts of drift with Baltic BA shows that groups can be equally WHG-rich but only some have BS drift. In this case its the Baltic_ba.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 06-16-2021 at 07:49 PM.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

  7. #1555
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    I think I found a way to measure Balto-Slavic drift.

    The German Corded Ware outlier occupies the same position as Belarusians on a WHG/EEF/Steppe based PCA:


    So, their general admixture proportions are pretty similar.

    However, he is actually more closely related to other CWC samples from Germany than to Baltic_BA (negative z-score):

    Code:
    > f4(f2_blocks,'Cameroon_SMA_published','Germany_CordedWare_o','Germany_CordedWare','Estonia_BA.SG')
    # A tibble: 1 x 8
      pop1                   pop2                 pop3               pop4               est       se     z        p
      <chr>                  <chr>                <chr>              <chr>            <dbl>    <dbl> <dbl>    <dbl>
    1 Cameroon_SMA_published Germany_CordedWare_o Germany_CordedWare Estonia_BA.SG -0.00377 0.000534 -7.05 1.77e-12
    For Belarusians it's the opposite: (positive z-score)

    Code:
    > f4(f2_blocks,'Cameroon_SMA_published','Belarusian','Germany_CordedWare','Estonia_BA.SG')
    # A tibble: 1 x 8
      pop1                   pop2       pop3               pop4              est       se     z           p
      <chr>                  <chr>      <chr>              <chr>           <dbl>    <dbl> <dbl>       <dbl>
    1 Cameroon_SMA_published Belarusian Germany_CordedWare Estonia_BA.SG 0.00139 0.000282  4.91 0.000000919

    The conclusion is that the German Corded Ware outlier doesn't have any Baltic drift. He is just a member of his population, but with increased WHG admixture.
    Actually BCE if you can do this, and if your assumption/belief is true that Belarusian and Germany_CW_o have almost the same levels of WHG vs EEF vs Steppe ancestry (which youve supported using the pca), an even better stat is
    F4(cameroon_sma, x, belarusian, germany_cw_o)
    This is only a single stat, so you get the test for BS drift in a direct comparison in one stat, without needing to compare two stats.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 06-16-2021 at 07:52 PM.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  9. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    bce, I don't understand any of this. At this point, it looks as if the Belarusians do not have Balto-Slavic drift.
    they do. their admixture proportions are the same, but despite this, the CWC_o has an increased affinity to other CWC, and Belarusians to Baltic_BA.

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  11. #1557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    BCE, this is absolutely brilliant!!

    If you have the time/can spare the effort, I recommend repeating this process for all WHG-rich populations/individuals and plotting the amount of BS drift (indicated by point color) on the West Eurasian PCA. It would be fascinating to see all these WHG-rich populations/individuals all in the same WHG-shifted part of the PCA, but with different colors ( i.e. have different amts of BS drift).
    i'm not on my PC any more , but i did run the tests before leaving. i'll post them tomorrow, maybe other members can take the idea further until then.

    now writing from memory,
    Singen EIA is slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Singen EBA. With Poland EBA instead of Baltic BA the score gets even higher.

    Poland EBA and N47/N49 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Polish CWC.

    Scy009 , 10 and MJ-14 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to other Scythians. For chernyakhiv MJ19 it's the same, and even for MJ37 which is south Slavic like by admixture proportions.

    Czech bbc outlier is much closer to Baltic BA than to other Czech bbc, higher z score than any of the above. it could be a mislabeled Slav.

    high WHG Hungarian Scythians are closer to other Hungarian Scythians and to Hungarian BA, than to Baltic BA.

    edit: i also remembered, Spiginas2 is much closer to Baltic Ba than to Baltic CWC.

    also, modern groups which have similar admixture proportions to these samples (Balts , Slavs, Hungarians) have much higher z scores towards Baltic Ba, only one Polish Eba comes close if I remember right.
    Last edited by bce; 06-16-2021 at 08:59 PM.

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  13. #1558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    You're not referring to MX265 here are you?

    Because this statement of MX265 being a mislabeled/misdated Slav keeps getting peddled around.

    The sample was checked a few times and confirmed Iron Age. Unless you're suggesting Proto-Slavs no matter how few were migrating prior to the early medieval like many here say is highly unlikely?

    Despite being an outlier and it's 30-40% Iron Age Batlic pull; the sample cannot be classified Balto-Slavic in any sense of the word considering he still clusters with IA Central Europeans, and Is only superficially South Slavic like which I wouldn't exactly call Slavic considering their heavy southern pull in comparison to Northern and East Slavs, which shouldn't be expected in Bohemia in even the early medieval let alone Iron Age.
    no, this is a different sample, you can find it in the g25 sheet.
    mx265 is Singen Eia.

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  15. #1559
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    i'm not on my PC any more , but i did run the tests before leaving. i'll post them tomorrow, maybe other members can take the idea further until then.

    now writing from memory,
    Singen EIA is slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Singen EBA. With Poland EBA instead of Baltic BA the score gets even higher.

    Poland EBA and N47/N49 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Polish CWC.

    Scy009 , 10 and MJ-14 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to other Scythians. For chernyakhiv MJ19 it's the same, and even for MJ37 which is south Slavic like by admixture proportions.

    Czech bbc outlier is much closer to Baltic BA than to other Czech bbc, higher z score than any of the above. it could be a mislabeled Slav.

    high WHG Hungarian Scythians are closer to other Hungarian Scythians and to Hungarian BA, than to Baltic BA.

    edit: i also remembered, Spiginas2 is much closer to Baltic Ba than to Baltic CWC.

    also, modern groups which have similar admixture proportions to these samples (Balts , Slavs, Hungarians) have much higher z scores towards Baltic Ba, only one Polish Eba comes close if I remember right.
    It makes sense for M458 to come from a Poland_EBA-like group likely just bit west of Proto-Balto-Slavs. Deu_Singen is clearly very different from any other IA or BA sample of the region. CHE_IA, Deu_Singen_BA and other local samples from East France, Swiss and Southwest Germany are on a cline between South French/Basques and NW Europeans but Deu_Singen_IA is not on this cline and shifted somehow eastwards. Probbly a mix of various kind of "eastern" and Central European ancestry (Hungary_BA?, Tollense?,...) including some kind of ancestry which contributed to Slavs or was even Balto-Slavic in the Iron Age.


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  17. #1560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    My apologies for the confusion.

    Can you check MX265 with this method at your convenience? If it's no trouble.

    Wasn't he closer to the middle/late Iron Age as opposed to early Iron Age?

    I think he was 500-700BCE? Many scholars place the end or late period of the iron age at around 550-500BCE. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    I found this in regard to Singen MX265's age, post #10:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...oogle_vignette
    There, it's listed as 750-450BCE.

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